Did death evolve?

Discussion of the distribution and abundance of living organisms and how these properties are affected by interactions between the organisms and their environment

Moderators: honeev, Leonid, amiradm, BioTeam

Post Reply
2810712
King Cobra
King Cobra
Posts: 697
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:19 pm

Post by 2810712 » Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:42 am

See cancer cell and cancer tissue are diff. So a cancer cell divides and i consider this as its death. Am I right ? ? ? But cancer tissue doesn't die [ in natural conditions mostly]untill its host dies same as parasites in our gut , would you call them immortal ? ? ? Ofcource not. So both cancer tissue and cancer cells are mortal. Here immortal = never dying This eqn says that viruses are also not immoartal [ if they are living.]
If this eqn is applicable then this whole proof is right.
Is it ? ? ?

Please correct me. I have not read this in any book but i've also not read that cancer cells are immortal. So, i need some proof.


hrushikesh

User avatar
biostudent84
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:00 am
Location: Farmville, VA
Contact:

Post by biostudent84 » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:25 pm

When a cell divides, it forms daughter cells.

In essence, the parent cell exists as two cells now. Think of those old (innaccurate) sci-fi movies about cloning. The original organism's identity is split along with its body. It doesn't die, as there is no dead cells.

Immortal, when used in biology means "Capable of indefinite growth or division." I think you are confusing the term "invulnerable" to the term "immortal." The term Immortal here means that it will live forever provided it gets everything it needs and some outside force does not kill it.

User avatar
Poison
Inland Taipan
Inland Taipan
Posts: 2322
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:44 pm
Location: Turkey

Post by Poison » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:39 pm

biostudent84 wrote:So is death a biological response to kill the cancer cells?


hmm... I haven't thought about it that way. I think it is just the result. not a response.
It matters not how strait the gate
How charged with punishment the scroll
I am the Master of my fate
I am the Captain of my soul.

User avatar
biostudent84
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:00 am
Location: Farmville, VA
Contact:

Post by biostudent84 » Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:08 pm

Poison wrote:hmm... I haven't thought about it that way. I think it is just the result. not a response.


Probably it is a result. But it is still possible that death is a response. When I go into anaphylaxis (shock from allergies), it is the result of a poison. While the poison is dangerous to my body, the shock is far worse. It cuts off all breathing passages and I have seven minutes to live between the onset of anaphylaxis and death.

Now, anaphylaxis is not cancer, nor remotely close, it still is an idea.

Kyle

User avatar
Poison
Inland Taipan
Inland Taipan
Posts: 2322
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:44 pm
Location: Turkey

Post by Poison » Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:59 pm

sounds logical. but still i'm not sure... I will think about it a bit more... :roll:
It matters not how strait the gate
How charged with punishment the scroll
I am the Master of my fate
I am the Captain of my soul.

User avatar
mith
Inland Taipan
Inland Taipan
Posts: 5345
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:14 pm
Location: Nashville, TN
Contact:

Post by mith » Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:12 am

I was just looking over some of our old threads and I came across one on telomerase(Originally posted by James).
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultran ... meres.html
According to this website paramecium and germline cells are immortal.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
~Niebuhr

2810712
King Cobra
King Cobra
Posts: 697
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:19 pm

Post by 2810712 » Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:08 am

I don't mean invulnerable. I'm considering the division of a cell as its death.
See this-
this will catch u in words
There are 3 cancercells which dived in two each .
So, how many individuals are there.
3 0r 6. That, way a cancer-tissue is a single individual. That i cannot agree . Please please please help me out...

hrushikesh

User avatar
Poison
Inland Taipan
Inland Taipan
Posts: 2322
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:44 pm
Location: Turkey

Post by Poison » Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:05 pm

2810712 wrote:I don't mean invulnerable. I'm considering the division of a cell as its death.
See this-
this will catch u in words
There are 3 cancercells which dived in two each .
So, how many individuals are there.
3 0r 6. That, way a cancer-tissue is a single individual. That i cannot agree . Please please please help me out...

hrushikesh


couldn't understand your question... :roll:
It matters not how strait the gate
How charged with punishment the scroll
I am the Master of my fate
I am the Captain of my soul.

2810712
King Cobra
King Cobra
Posts: 697
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:19 pm

Post by 2810712 » Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:09 am

How can cancercells be immortal ?

In Oxford dictionary-
immortal= living forever
invulnerable=impossible to harm or damage.

I could not find the biological meaning of these two , if it is different, in any biological dictionary available to me.

How can we say that if a cancer-cell divides then it doesn't die???How can we say that the identity of parent cell is maintained in the daughers.And if one of these 2 daughters die then what would we say ? the parent is half-died???

See if there are 3 cancercell in a culture, then the no. of individuals=3,
if each of them mitots then 6 cell are formed , so how many individuals are there ? + 6 or 3 ? I'll say 6 so, although they have same genes we shouldn't say that they are same individuals.


So , cancer cells are not invulnerable, but they are also not immortal as they are not living forever. SEE the example of paracite-colony that dies whith their host same as cancer TISSUE. But individual paracites may die , but colony is still alive. Same is the case of cancercells , individaul cells divide [ =die] and tissue dies with the host mostly.

pleaseplease please correct whereever possible.

thank u v much,

hrushikesh

User avatar
Poison
Inland Taipan
Inland Taipan
Posts: 2322
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:44 pm
Location: Turkey

Post by Poison » Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:00 pm

think of bacteria that reproduces by mitosis. when 2 daughter cells formed, does the parent considered to be dead? I don't think so. the genetic material still exists.
when normal cells get old then they go through apoptosis. But cancer cells don't.
It matters not how strait the gate
How charged with punishment the scroll
I am the Master of my fate
I am the Captain of my soul.

2810712
King Cobra
King Cobra
Posts: 697
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:19 pm

Post by 2810712 » Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:46 pm

My mind is tending to say cancer cells dying abnormally. Why call them alive wwe have posted long definitions of life and if the divided cells r the parent cell itself then there is no reproduction, this is a contradiction.
See a man can dy of cancer, hepatitis even in young age [ i.e. without ageing (ageing is similar to apoptosis)] So, don't we call them dead ? We do call them dead. So , the way something dies doesn't affect the conclusion that it is dead.

Please please please correct wherever possible.

hrushikesh
_______________________
' natural" doesn't mean not harmful. It is safer in most cases as it is time tested in most cases as people in centuries before didn't have artificial cosmetics.

hrushikesh

User avatar
Poison
Inland Taipan
Inland Taipan
Posts: 2322
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:44 pm
Location: Turkey

Post by Poison » Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:17 pm

I'm really sorry but I couldn't understand your point of view. :oops: Mitosis is a way of reproduction, as you know, asexual reproduction.
cancer cells do not go through apoptosis. I think apoptosis is similar to death not aging.
It matters not how strait the gate
How charged with punishment the scroll
I am the Master of my fate
I am the Captain of my soul.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests