Embryonic Stem cells

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Mjhavok
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Post by Mjhavok » Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:57 am

This maybe slightly crossing the science/religion barrier but here goes. A human embryo does not have more intelligence or life than any other embryo from any other species. Infect the embryonic development of a human being goes along the same lines as many other species. Are the religious people really so arrogant and vain that the think this all mighty deity, god as they call him, really puts such an importance on Human's than on other animals on planet earth. The fact that we can cull millions of chickens to save ourselves from bird flu but oh no u can't touch an embryo is ridculous. Sorry just a little emotional about that. For the person who is catholic, isn't the christian god all about forgiveness. I say u support stem cell research and then if god has a problem ask him to forgive you :-D.
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Post by victor » Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:37 am

Um, after reading about embryonic stem cell bioethics I' a little bit agree that in order to reach the goal, people can't use all ways (including the negative one).
"In order to cure their disseases, people can't use someone's life in order to achieve their goal. It's all because when zygote is formed, the same time also it's called human being. So, we can't use them to cure our disseses because they (zygote) also have the rights to live. If we do that, it'll be the same like caniballism." That's what the book says.
Do you agree? :wink:
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Post by Mjhavok » Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:38 pm

What "book" are you refering to?

In 1987 the CDF with approval of the pope declared human life to begin when fertilsation takes place. How are they do decide this. The pope is not ordained by god(if he exists) he is chosen by a bunch of old cardinals with archaic views of the world.

The bible is just a bunch of hand picked stories picked by a few to further there purpose and beliefs. It isn't the world of god, and it has changed so much and be retranslated so much, is it even the same as the original. If god exists then I doubt it would require me to read a book on him. Anyways back to stem cell research. I think the zygote is not human in that it doesn't have a soul until there is cognitive function. I will listen to all opinions to refute this but at the moment this is my belief.

Also it's funny the catholic church say so much on abortion, stem cell research and homesexuality when they are all but abstinent or are meant to be.

Someone please bring this thread back to science. I get side tracked :-S.
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Post by alextemplet » Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:21 am

Many of you know by now that I am Catholic, but I wonder how I would be received if I was to attack a non-Christian religion. We try to keep our discussions on this site free of religious issues, but sometimes that's not possible, so I don't mind if someone makes a religious comment I don't agree with. Still, there's a difference between simply disagreeing with someone's faith and openly bashing it. I'm not saying anyone here is guilty of that offense, but before it gets that bad, let's please keep the bashing of anyone's faith to a minimum.

Mjhavok, you say that you do not believe an embryo has a soul until, as you put it, "until there is a cognitive function." That's certainly an interesting and, quite honestly, sensible viewpoint. The problem with the soul is that, if it exists, it must surely lie beyond the realm of science, and in the realm of the supernatural and spiritual. So any statement about the nature of the soul can be little more than an opinion. That said, I would like to express my own opinion on the topic.

Biologically, life begins at conception. At that moment, the genes that will determine who that person will be are brought together for the first time, and stay together until that person dies. From the moment those genes come together, a human exists. Spiritually, it's harder to say, but a few hints can be gleaned from investigating the nature of the soul. A soul probably makes a person as unique spiritually as genes make him physically, and the soul is probably as fundamental to that person's life as anything else. For example, death can be described as the moment the heart stops, or the brain stops, or even the moment the soul leaves the body. Just as one cannot survive with a heart or brain, neither can one survive without a soul. Thus, I believe that the soul and body are fundamentally linked from the moment of conception, and from that moment the embryo is a fully human as anyone else, both physically and spiritually, and the body and soul remain linked until death. What happens then is anyone's guess, but that's my opinion on the matter.

We may disagree on some important issues, Mjhavok, but you may be surprised to know that I agree with you that a human embryo is no better or higher than the embryo of anything else. This may sound odd coming from a Catholic, especially considering my last paragraph, so allow me to explain. I believe the same reasoning I've just explained about human souls applies to all life. Humans, after all, are kept alive by exactly the same factors as other organisms. If we cannot surivive without souls, then I do not believe anything else can either. Therefor, we are only higher than other life in our ability to influence and change the world around us in much more drastic ways than other species. That ability bears responsibility for us to take care of our environment and not destroy it - something we are frighteningly on the verge of doing. So perhaps we are a higher lifeform in the job of planetary caretaker, but not in anything else. Because of this, a human embryo might not have anymore right to live or die than a chicken embryo, but I believe mankind's ability to influence or harm his world means that human embryos should be treated with more caution and respect. For example, a shotgun should be treated with a lot more respect than a toy capgun because it is so powerful. Similarly, I believe human embryos should be treated with more caution because humans are so powerful.

As I said before, I see nothing wrong with stem cell research so long as proper ethics are observed. I only hope and pray that, for once, our "great" species will do more good than harm, rather than the other way around.

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Post by Mjhavok » Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:11 am

You make alot of very good arguements. The human soul at the moment is just a fictional concept created by human's. It maybe possible one day to detect it and even trace where it goes like in that michael cordy book Lucifer, but at the moment it is something you eithier believe in because of your faith or because you just believe you must be more than the some of your parts. As for religion bashing I do not want to insult anyones beliefs it's just that if a god exists I don't think anyone person or group should tell me how, when or where I should worship him or if he even requires worship.
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Post by alextemplet » Tue Jan 03, 2006 2:51 am

Yes, I agree completely. The reason I believe the soul exists is two-fold. First, because of my faith, but also because I just don't see how non-living matter could come together and start living without some form of spiritual involvement. A common argument is that, at the moment of death, a dead cell is exactly the same, structurally, as a living cell; however, it contains no life. This is by no means a perfect biological argument, especially since different parts of the body may "live" on after the heart or brain is dead, but it's something to think about.

As for faith in general, I believe the phrase, "To each his own," is the best way to put it. Some people prefer to be individualists and others prefer to run with the pack. I guess I'm somewhere in the middle, since I consider myself to be a devout Catholic, but I also beliefs that are by no means doctrinally conventional. But I don't think God cares about every little detail of our faith, or even if we do have faith, since I think living a good life and being a good person should count above everything else. If we have that, then it shouldn't matter what our religion is; God, if He exists, will be pleased.

I'm also getting sidetracked, so if this post is deleted for being too religious I both understand and apologize.

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