Darwin's Finches

[ProStoY_PatSaN]

Darwin's Finches

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Post by ProStoY_PatSaN » Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:56 am

I am not a biologist, and this is just my opinion...

I think that Darwin's finches do not evolve. They are all born with the same beaks, and if you take an offspring of the bird with a long beak and put it to live in the environment where finches with short beaks live, it will grow up with short beak.... Even if parents changed, their offspring will not necessarily be like them....
it depends on environment, and not genes

[Poison]

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Post by Poison » Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:06 pm

So... What is the question?

[mith]

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Post by mith » Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:49 pm

Larmarkian opinions don't really stand up to scrutiny.

[James]

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Post by James » Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:32 pm

Are you saying genes do not exist?

[ProStoY_PatSaN]

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Post by ProStoY_PatSaN » Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:41 am

Are you saying genes do not exist?

no, genes do exist. what i am saying is that once the person, or an animal is born, it's genes cannot be changed, but it's external appearence can. and whatever genes the person is born with, person will pass it to his/her offspring

[mith]

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Post by mith » Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:00 pm

Well of course the external appearance can change somewhat such as when we grow older or get more muscles but what you're talking about is voluntarily changing(your finch example). That constitutes larmarkianism and it doesn't happen.You can try this for yourself really. Buy three birds(one short and 2 long beaked) and see if the odd one out conforms to the pair.

Although you have the right to your opinion, I do believe it would be wise to read some biology books before making empirical statements as such.

[ProStoY_PatSaN]

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Post by ProStoY_PatSaN » Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:46 pm

Well of course the external appearance can change somewhat such as when we grow older or get more muscles but what you're talking about is voluntarily changing(your finch example). That constitutes larmarkianism and it doesn't happen.You can try this for yourself really. Buy three birds(one short and 2 long beaked) and see if the odd one out conforms to the pair.

Although you have the right to your opinion, I do believe it would be wise to read some biology books before making empirical statements as such.

yeah, i guess i should read some biology books... i am not really a biologist, you know

Do you know about Chinook Indians that lived up in Seattle area? They were called flatheads because in their tribe, when babies were born, parents placed some plate on their head so it grew flat...
http://www.usgennet.org/alhnorus/ahorclak/flathead.jpg
they have been doing it for at least 5,000 years, so why their babies weren't born with flat heads? they didn't have even a slight change...
why is this?

[b_d_41501]

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Post by b_d_41501 » Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:33 pm

Because the plate didn't change their genetic structure. People aren't "normally" born with flat heads and just because you cut a finger off during your life, have sex with someone, and have kids doesn't mean that the kid will be born with a finger missing. You are definitely hardcore Lamarck, this stuff cannot happen man!!!!

[ProStoY_PatSaN]

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Post by ProStoY_PatSaN » Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:13 am

Because the plate didn't change their genetic structure. People aren't "normally" born with flat heads and just because you cut a finger off during your life, have sex with someone, and have kids doesn't mean that the kid will be born with a finger missing. You are definitely hardcore Lamarck, this stuff cannot happen man!!!!

can environmental changes change genetic structure of finches?

[protozoan]

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Post by protozoan » Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:04 pm

can environmental changes change genetic structure of finches?

According to darwinism never! In darwinism animals do not adapt to their enviromnent like i need longer beak so my children will have longer beak. Theres natural selection (no adaptation) which select the more succsesfull trait and lesser succesfull traits are deleted from population. So if you put finches with normal length of beaks to the particular island, some children of these birds will have longer neck some will have shorter beak, some will have beak like their parents and which trait will be more succesful that will survive. Genetic material is changing randomly and environment do select these changes. (bad darwinism )

[b_d_41501]

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Post by b_d_41501 » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:35 pm

It's not that beaks are constantly sprouting out like Pinnochio's nose. The birds with the genetic material for short beaks are simply more successful at certain times, thus the population of the long beaks die off. When conditions arise where the long beaks have a better chance of suvival, then the short beaks start to die and the birds with long beaks become the majority.

[James]

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Post by James » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:39 pm

Yes, if the environment is in favour of X more than Y, the X organisms will more successfully stay alive for longer and reproduce than Y. Thus, over time, the population will consist of all X and no Y. It's a passive process.