Bible vs Darwin

Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.

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David George
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Re: Bible vs Darwin

Post by David George » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:15 am

alextemplet wrote:
AstusAleator wrote:Why didn't the Catholic Church excommunicate Hitler?


Consider the Vatican's isolated and vulnerable position inside facist (and, later, German-occupied) Italy. The Vatican would've been powerless had the facists every decided to take it over, Church leaders might have felt it better to stick with covert methods (underground railroad for the Jews, for example) that actually made a difference rather than public statements that wouldn't change the situation at all except to anger Hitler into invading the Vatican and sending the Pope to Auschwitz.

David George wrote:Anyways you still don't realize the fact that religion is the major cause for a lot of fight.And history proves that it ain't a fight between atheists and theists.I am sooooooooooooo biased to atheist ain't I??


And you still don't realize that people are going to fight each other anyway and only use religion (or nationalism, or racism, or any other excuse they can find) as a way to "justify" it.

You have also ignored the fact that if what you say is true, then eliminating religion should also eliminate the majority of unrest in the world, yet the history of most atheist communist states (and also revolutionary France) seems to give the opposite impression, that eliminating religion only leads to even more violence.

You also ignore the fact that most major world religions preach peace, and most of the good that gets done in the world (charities, for example) is done by religious organizations.

You also ignore the fact that the category of "religion" covers such an extreme diversity of beliefs and practices that lumping it all together as you have is about as illogical as lumping communism in with capitalism as "all the same sort of thing."

You also ignore the fact that almost all violence in the world is condemned and opposed by most religious leaders, for example Pope John Paul II's opposition to the US invasion of Iraq. Those who try to claim religious justification for violence, such as in Northern Ireland, are also very strongly condemned by those same religious leaders, and the religion they claim to represent (in this case, Protestantism and Catholicism) cannot be held responsible for their actions anymore than the United States government can be held accountable for the actions of Timothy McVeigh.

Add to that the fact that you have twisted my words around to your own benefit (by claiming I said the Bible is flawed, when I in fact said no such thing), and you have succeeded in the very difficult task of making some of the young earth creationists on this site appear logical by comparison (although, to be fair, you still haven't topped enarees). In fact you and some of the other hateful atheists on this forum (including the guy who tried to claim that knowledge is sinful, as well as the one who labeled people of faith as "religitards") have honestly made me wonder, what ever happened to reason?


Firstly the vatican was not in a weak position.Infact it had great relation with the facists.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/mu ... tholic.htm

Besides i was wrong before when i posted he was an atheist.So he was probably never religious, just aligned with the pope for popular support.
And secondly all atheists are not communists.Besides eliminating religion will increase violence,i accept that and never said that religion should be eliminated.
besides who will i go and fight with if there are no theists :lol:
The work of charities is respectable and i never opposed to it.Even though they always include religion as an integral part of their charity,but at the end of the day i have nothing to worry about it.
A simple condemnation will not do enough to stop a damn war.In my opinion the pope could have done much more.But as always I respect Pope John Paul II.He makes a good model for the catholics.
And i asked if the Bible was flawed, but you did not answer it.
Thank you for calling me a hateful atheist. :P
And serious i have never ever thought of changing anyone's mind.Besides i am only happy if a person becomes an atheist by thinking and not by any stupid atheistic preaching.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution"
-Theodosius Dobzhansky

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Post by alextemplet » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:24 am

I never said that all atheists are communists (remember my statement about unsubstantiated assumptions?), and I called you hateful because you are. Saying that religion is the cause for all sorts of evil does sound pretty hateful, sort of like the KKK saying all our problems are caused by Jews and blacks.

Sorry about the "Bible is flawed" statement, I checked back and you're right, that was a question.

As for JP2, what would you have expected him to do? He has no authority or military power to stop the US from invading anyone. All he can do is hope that his opinion will influence the Catholics in the US to oppose the invasion.

Anyway I think this whole thing is getting rather pointless, like everything anyone says goes in one ear and out the other. The sort of situation where people care more about asserting their own point of view than listening to anyone else's, and we're all just talking to brick walls.
Generally speaking, the more people talk about "being saved," the further away they actually are from true salvation.

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Post by David George » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:36 am

you said atheist communist states.
You must come and see the Nepali communists.They have bigger hindu religious symbols on their heads than my brotherly Indians.
Yeah talking to bricks and walls.But it always comes back to you so always wanna hit it back.
I meant to say that religion was the cause of many conflicts not all.
Anyway leave it.
I give up.
As the Pharoah Ramses ll said
"Peace is better than fighting"
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution"
-Theodosius Dobzhansky

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Post by David George » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:38 am

And abt the hateful atheist stuff,I think you ain't seen much of atheists.There are guys 1000s of times worser than me.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution"
-Theodosius Dobzhansky

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Post by alextemplet » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:51 am

A clarification: I said atheist communist states because most communist nations have also been atheist (USSR, China, Cambodia, etc.). This is not the same as saying that all atheists are communists, nor does it imply that all communists are atheists. I, for example, am a communist but not an atheist.

As for being hateful, yes, I've seen much worse than you, but your rhetoric still sounds hateful to me.

What about we just compromise on religion being good or bad depending on the faith in question and how it's interpreted?
Generally speaking, the more people talk about "being saved," the further away they actually are from true salvation.

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Post by David George » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:02 am

Yeah your right no religion preaches about hatred,but its the interpretation that counts.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution"
-Theodosius Dobzhansky

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Post by alextemplet » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:59 pm

At last, there shall be peace in the evo forum, if not on Earth!

Let's see how long it lasts before some fanatic comes and screws it all up. ;)
Generally speaking, the more people talk about "being saved," the further away they actually are from true salvation.

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Post by David George » Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:59 pm

The evo forum should never be silent.I think its nothing but the "controversy" that makes it a very special topic.
But my personal interest could be due to other reasons also.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution"
-Theodosius Dobzhansky

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Post by alextemplet » Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:25 pm

Same here, personal interest, although the controversy certainly makes for good fun!
Generally speaking, the more people talk about "being saved," the further away they actually are from true salvation.

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Post by SamTheFreeThinker » Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:29 am

It seems like religion, and science can coexist.
But I would break it in several categories.
Category one:
A person who accepts both evolution, and faith. He (she) does not have to attend church, and sing songs, and praise deity every week (or every day)
Category two:
Accepts only faith but do not evolution. Typically, less educated, and lives in either American Bible Belt, (Christian Fundamentalists) Middle Eastern Muslim Extremist (Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Pakistan)
Category three:
Does not Accept Faith, but only evolution
(atheists and agnostics). That kind can be both educated, and uneducated.
I am definetely no second category, but 80 percent third, and 20 percent first(agnostic)
Second category are more likely to be dangerous, and delusional people! (more likely then first and third)
percentages are not accurately, but I assigned them to explain the point.

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Re:

Post by David George » Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:52 am

SamTheFreeThinker wrote:Category two:
Accepts only faith but do not evolution. Typically, less educated, and lives in either American Bible Belt, (Christian Fundamentalists) Middle Eastern Muslim Extremist (Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Pakistan)


you left S.america,other parts of asia and australia.
but you can simply say worldwide.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution"
-Theodosius Dobzhansky

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Post by AstusAleator » Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:55 am

I don't think DG is hateful. It seems like he has some bitterness, and it's good that he's expressing it so that it can be addressed and resolved.

I'm not sure if either of you guys ever acknowledged that there is a cultural divide here - which may be keeping you from seeing eye-to-eye. David seems to live in an area where religion has a slightly different function and effect than in the US. Christianity is huge in the US, but our politics are relatively seperated from it. In other countries where religion and politics are the same, you may see completely different effects.
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