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Bible vs Darwin

Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.

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Postby mith » Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:27 pm

But that was ages ago. Scientific principles and ways of knowing have been established way back(like you said, enlightenment) and the church has long since stopped burning people. Referring to some of Alex's posts, you'll learn that the Church does not support creationist claims and instead is behind evolution. What does that mean? Is this the work of the church? Look carefully at the people who support creationism and would spend millions on building a museum. Some are the same rich people who selectively ignore the passages of the bible that deal with poverty. I think ultimately, people are to blame.

If you want to blame someone, blame the budget cuts to science programs after all the excitement from Sputnik died down. I heard from one of my profs that the main reason people don't understand evolution/science/creation is because for some 20 years, no one was required to take an intro evolutionary course and instead the focus was all on molecular biology(DNA) and such.
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Postby genovese » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:14 pm

I quite agree with mith that the modern church for the last (?200 years) is trying to make the bible fit with science rather than trying to make science fit with the bible. But 200 years compared with 1800 years is recent history. So when creationist take over the cause of the bible as a scientific explanation for nature we are reminded only too well how people were forced into ignorance when the church was a major political power. Luckily for all mankind creationists are not as yet a strong political force. I hope that all thinking people make sure that they never do become a political force.

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Postby alextemplet » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:21 pm

Genovese, I would advise you against making generalizations and blanket statements against all religion. Not all churches oppose evolution, and some have been supporting evolution and other scientific research since a long time before Darwin. St. Augustine, for example, was a leading evolutionist of his day.

That said, Mith is right. It is not so much the "church" (whatever that means) that is to blame as it is the people that corrupt it.
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Postby genovese » Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:33 am

I was not trying to suggest that all religions oppose evolution. I have previously accepted what you have to say about that. I was more concerned with mith's statement about "Religon is not interested in being scientific;....."

I was agreeing with mith in focussing on some people-creationist- who I perceive as posing a threat to free-thinking if they were ever to become a political force. I used the example of how Christian churches have behaved in the PAST when they were also a political force, whatever their denomination. History has a tendency to repeat itself, so we need to remind ourselves what can happen.

Like you, I find it difficult to separate the actions of people from that of the organization to which they belong. I can only judge by their beliefs and actions. If the leaders of an organization start to play power/politics then what they espouse also becomes important for those not belonging to that body of thought. I am all for people believing what they want to believe - no harm in that - it's what they then do with those beliefs that is sometimes threatening.

I tend to judge people by their "deeds" rather than by their "beliefs".
I believe that is how Jesus talked about salvation. If I have understood his message correctly, I would agree with that philosophy.
Praying and worshipping might help some people to achieve good deeds but many people that I have met do not go on and do the "deeds" after they have worshipped.
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Postby alextemplet » Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:17 pm

You raise some good points, but you might want to focus your wording specifically on creationists, if that is your meaning, rather than using broaders terms like "religion" that can apply to more groups than just the ones you're talking about. If you do wish to discuss religion in its broad sense, then you might want to take into consideration all religions instead of just one.

For example, you are right that Christian fundamentalists do have some dangerous beliefs, but Christianity is not alone in this. Consider, for example, the former Taliban government in Afghanistan. If we are to discuss this darker side of religion, we should keep in mind that this darker side applies to all religions and not just one.

That said, you are right that deeds are more important than beliefs, just as actions speak louder than words. Jesus's favorite word in the Gospels was "hypocrite," because He was constantly speaking out against precisely those sorts of people who would dare to call themselves holy while living a life of corruption.
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Postby genovese » Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:32 am

You are right that my fears apply to all religions and all strongly held beliefs (political) I have tended to focus on Christianity since I was brought up in that religion and feel more confident when discussing such issues.

I think we agree - Happy Christmas.
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Postby alextemplet » Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:00 am

Oh I certainly agree with you; many of my own opinions on the darker side of religion are focused against Christianity and especially Catholicism since, being my own religion and the one I've been around the most, I've experiences more of the Catholic Church's good and bad aspects than any other faith. I try as much as possible to keep an open mind when discussing the topic of religion in general, although no matter how hard I try not to I will always see the world through Catholic eyes.
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Postby volcob » Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:28 am

I think mith has the point

basically th bible isnt a teaching of science

what was written therein probably reflected what was believed at the time it was written

most scholars agree that the bible contains facts and literary pieces such as the Genesis

The Catholic Church afirms that

biblical translation then is not an issue here I guess
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Postby mcar » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:17 am

Afterall,the endless questions between scientific facts and biblical aspects nonetheless would be always a mystery. It seems that this is how man endlessly asks for something that his mind could no longer calculate. --talk about a a self-destructing unit in your PC.
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Postby MrMistery » Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:21 pm

do not forget that the bible only contains four gospels out of the more than thirty written. Who is to say that the orthodox church was right? Well, mainly the orthodox church. Why believe in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and not in the Gospel of Thomas, that of Philip or in the gospel of Mary Magdalene? I hope that this will not be misinterpreted but i try to take the bible as-is and exclusively. What they did at Nicaea was basically to say "This is the true word of God! Not those other words you might hear."
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Postby MrMistery » Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:23 pm

on the topic, has anyone ever read this book? http://www.amazon.com/Finding-Darwins-G ... 171&sr=8-1
I was thinking of buying it
"As a biologist, I firmly believe that when you're dead, you're dead. Except for what you live behind in history. That's the only afterlife" - J. Craig Venter
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Re: Bible vs Darwin

Postby alextemplet » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:52 pm

I've read Finding Darwin's God many times, and it is a very good book; I highly recommend it! The scientific aspects of the book are well-written and easily understood, and the religious aspects are well-thought out and persuasively argued. I would definitely recommend it if you are interested.
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