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Another creationist thread

Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.

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Another creationist thread

Postby elevent » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:31 pm

I'm taking Biology 111 and through my studies I've come up with a few questions that even my professor can't answer. Any help would be appreciated. :)

a) If the P-53 gene fixes any change in the DNA, and if it can't fix it the cell is destroyed, how is evolution even possible?

b) Mutation is evident in organisms but such organisms never birth a new species. Why?

c) How can evolution exist when Mathematics have proven it impossible?


Thanks :)
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Postby h2so4hurts » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:27 pm

a) P53 doesn't fix anything, its a transcription factor... Evolution is possible because of P53. Think about it.

b) Your mother birthed you FULL of mutations. Have fun spreading them onto your offspring.

c) Really? I want links and papers. Please reference this. This is the first time I have ever heard of mathematics disproving evolution from a fundie.

You didn't ask a professor these questions. They would have laughed at you or given you concrete answers.
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Are you kidding?

Postby elevent » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:14 pm

1) P-53 DOES fix DNA. Do you know anything? Maybe you should read your biology book more. Professor said there is no change that hasn't been fixed by this gene. He said science has never observed a change that is looked over by the "guardian angel" gene. Hence, no evolution.

2) Mutations in me still cause me to birth babies that are human. Again, within the species, like the question said. You don't see me birthing aliens.

3) The professor also agreed that the mathematical evidence against evolution is very powerful. There is not enough time for the random mutations to occur. It cannot be tested. Biology texts have one possible example of observed evolution: the moth whose wings change color. This example has recently been shown to happen not as the result of evolution but because of genetic switches that are turned on and off by environmental factors. Yet this example still turns up in biology texts.

Physics professor Hubert Yockey said in "Calculation of probability of spotaneous bio-genesis by information theory":

If you were to thoroughly shuffle ten flash cards numbered one-to-ten and laid them out, the odds of them lining up in order is one in 3,628,800. The probability rapidly decreases the more variables you add – if you were to have one hundred cards numbered in order and performed the same experiment the odds would be one in 10^158!

Astronomers tell us there are no more than 10^87 particles in the universe. Assuming the universe is no more than thirty billion years old (10^18 seconds) and each particle can participate in a thousand billion (10^12) different reactions every second, the maximum number of reactions occurring would be 10^117. Using this equation we understand the probability of an event that requires more than 10^117 events is zero – or impossible.

The cells that life builds upon are infinitely more complex[1] than a specimen with one hundred parts – thus we can logically conclude that life originating from chance is impossible. Marcel Golay[2] estimated that the chance of replicating the simplest protein molecule is one in 10^450. Frank Salisbury[3] put the probability of a standard DNA strand to be one in 10^600.

Like you cannot build a car from random parts, you cannot build a living organism from random particles. All living systems are bound by order and require intelligence to exist[4]. Order is defined by patterns and rules – thus the example of numbered flash cards.

ps. Don't call me a liar and say I didn't ask these questions. That's the point of asking questions, to get an answer.
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Postby h2so4hurts » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:26 pm

No, P53 is a transcritption factor. I work with it in my research. I think I'd have a pretty good idea what it does. It's a check point protein that binds to and activates the transcription of genes (ie p21) that halt the cell cycle so the global genome repair machinery can fix the DNA.

Evolution takes time. There's this thing called speciation and this other thing called isolation that are required for the former to occur. Of course you're not going to pop out aliens overnight, it doesn't work like that. It takes time, but I guess if you think the earth is only 6,000 years old then we have two different concepts of time.

There are many papers showing that natural biogenesis occurs.

And these are loaded questions for which you think you have an answer. Fighting with a fundie on this topic is pointless. Why don't you just cut to the chase and tell me to repent and read the bible.
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Postby elevent » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:30 pm

1) p53, also known as protein 53 (TP53), is a transcription factor that regulates the cell cycle and hence functions as a tumor suppressor. It is important in multicellular organisms as it helps to suppress cancer. p53 has been described as "the guardian of the genome", "the guardian angel gene", or the "master watchman", referring to its role in conserving stability by PREVENTING GENOME MUTATION.[1]

enough said.

2) Again, humans and animals and trees have stayed the same for thousands of years. There's no fossils whatsoever to support an in between "mutation".

3) Did you even read the physics report? The mathematics made it clear it's IMPOSSIBLE.

Am I going to tell you to open the Bible? That's a laugh. You assume way too much which says a lot about your character.
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Postby mith » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:32 pm

a) P53 fixes damaged DNA, but do mutations always come from damages? Review meiosis.

b)Review how speciation occurs.

c) Mathematics is not biology. Do your mathematical models accurately incorporate elements of enzymatic activity or electrostatic affinities? Or do they view molecules as simply combinations?
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Postby elevent » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:35 pm

a) Mutations in Meiosis, yes. But new species as a result? No.

b) A mutation is defined as a random change in an existing DNA molecule. A mutation cannot add to the length of a genetic code, it only can change the values already present. For evolution to occur there must be new genes to enter the gene pool - new genetic material is the only way for a more advanced species to come from another species. The problem is that gene mutation is random; there is no order or calculation with mutation. Modern scientists can increase the rate of mutation, but cannot guide which genes will mutate.

c) Mathematics are fact, evolution is theory. Do you know what theory means?
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Postby elevent » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:36 pm

Again, your "God"

If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
--Charles Darwin, Origin of Species
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Postby mith » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:46 pm

a) Define species. How much mutations differentiate a species from another? How are mechanisms of mutation incapable of explaining speciation?

b) A mutation is a change of sequence. There are actually quite a number of ways to add to the length of a genetic code, examples - unequal recombination of homologous chromosomes, retrotransposons(copy and paste).

Both of those previous examples can duplicate genes and the copies are seen in gene families that create proteins with similar functions.

More complete information here
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB102.html

c) A theory is a scientifically accepted model. Mathematics is an abstract study of numbers and logic. To apply mathematics to the real world, you need to assess which factors are important to your model and make appropriate approximations.

So, consider the ideal gas law which is a purely mathematical model of gas behavior(assuming molecules are tiny and have no affinity to each other). Now explain why the model does not hold when pressure or temperatures are low.
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Postby elevent » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:55 pm

a and b) Some estimates of mutation’s pace put the rate at about once per ten million cells. This is not difficult to achieve in a cell population of, say, one billion. In fact the possibility of having a group of mutant genes is somewhat high. Unfortunately, these mutations rarely affect the reproductive cells, preventing the altered DNA from being passed on to its offspring. If this were not the case a father with cancer would pass his DNA along with his cancer on to his children. Even when genes are passed on the offspring are often sterile. These obstacles prevent most mutations from even reaching the gene pool!

For evolution to continue, mutations are a driving fact. It is common knowledge that mutations are beneficial, right? Because of this we should expose all newly conceived children to radiation, and all bathe in radioactive water, right? Surely this will be our evolutionary spring, evolution will stir itself and take leaps and bounds. Obviously this is ludicrous. This attempted evolution by way of mutation would be handed yet another setback when “natural selection,” the supposed friend of evolution, would quickly exterminate all those stupid enough to try it. Yet this is exactly the device that evolution relies on.

You could compare a mutation to taking a brief page of instructions, selecting one character and replacing it with another randomly selected character. Chances are that you will introduce a spelling or grammatical error on the very first modification. Though slight, this error has already hurt the meaning of the instructions. The more modifications we make, the higher the probability of seriously jumbling the meaning of the text. Soon the page would be totally incomprehensible, containing groups of meaningless letters and characters. Making one random character change per second, it would take years before you could even hope to find a page that would have no spelling errors on it and exponentially more years to hopefully find a page that error-free and made sense. No chance..

c) Math is abstract study that is in itself proof. Are you telling me that 2+2 isn't 4? That 10^2 isn't 100? What is fictional about any of this?

Like I stated above (since you failed to see) the physics professor himself proved that it is mathematically impossible.

"Assuming the universe is no more than thirty billion years old (10^18 seconds) and each particle can participate in a thousand billion (10^12) different reactions every second, the maximum number of reactions occurring would be 10^117. Using this equation we understand the probability of an event that requires more than 10^117 events is zero – or impossible. "

That's just the universe. Seriously, you scientists who fall prey to one man's feeble-minded theory are surely sad critters yourselves.

You study in high designed labs, using highly sophisticated (and designed) equipment and you say that the most complex of living things and basis of living things has no design? Hilarious.

And if it's so random where are the fossils showing negative mutations? Shouldn't mutations, which are random, produce at least SOME negativity? You don't have any answers, only more questions that run in circles.

And no, I could care less if you don't believe in God. But your theory states calculation is controlled and ordered-- who controls it?
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Postby AstusAleator » Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:15 am

annoying rabble-rouser wrote:Am I going to tell you to open the Bible? That's a laugh. You assume way too much which says a lot about your character.


It's a simple enough assumption, judging by the subject of the thread.

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Postby alextemplet » Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:40 am

*grabs popcorn and watches the feathers fly*
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