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Who did we evolve from?

Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.

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Postby alextemplet » Sat May 20, 2006 4:46 am

Wow, Linn, I'm not used to you and I being on the same side in this forum, but I'm certainly not compaining either!

I think I'll just throw this out for thought. I don't believe in interpreting the Bible at all; I believe in taking it directly for what it says. It is very obvious when the Bible is being literal and when it is being metaphorical, and when it is metaphorical it is equally obvious how those metaphors are to be interpreted (ex: Jesus' parables). When I read the Bible, I don't try to interpret it; I let the Bible interpret itself. In 2 Peter we are warned against those who misinterpret the Bible, twisting it "to their own destruction." So I don't bother trying to interpret the Bible; I let the Bible interpret itself.

Getting back to the days, it's a well-known fact that the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is around 13 billion years old. So either the days in Genesis are metaphors, or the Bible is wrong. Which is more logical from a Christian perspective?
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Postby rayzoflyfe » Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:51 pm

biotchr wrote:
alextemplet wrote:
As for the seven days, the Bible does say that a day and a thousand years are the same to God, Who is timeless. And a day is only a relative unit depending on the rotation of Earth; it's different on Mercury, Venus, Mars, etc. Who knows how long a day is to God?


The "day" in Genesis 1 is used contextually to refer to the daylight of a 24 hour period - just as we know it. The hebrew word "yom" is used in other contexts such as "In the day of the Lord" and "in the time of the Judges" to signify a certain time period. The non-24 hour period of "yom" is clearly indicated within the text such as those mentioned above and is NOT used in the Gesesis 1 passage. Furthermore, Genesis 1:4 specifically calls "light" day (yom) - "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day". The passage goes to great length at defining day and night.


Moses was not seeing something he actually witnessed when he wrote Genesis. Moses is seeing something that God was showing him. The fact is that in Genesis, when god said let there be light, he had not created the sun yet. He did not create the sun the moon and the stars until day four. Ohhhh explain that one? And yet there was evening and there was morning on day one. Sooooo, since there was no sun, no moon, exactly what was even and morning?
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Postby alextemplet » Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:02 pm

rayzoflyfe wrote:Moses was not seeing something he actually witnessed when he wrote Genesis. Moses is seeing something that God was showing him. The fact is that in Genesis, when god said let there be light, he had not created the sun yet. He did not create the sun the moon and the stars until day four. Ohhhh explain that one? And yet there was evening and there was morning on day one. Sooooo, since there was no sun, no moon, exactly what was even and morning?


Just some of the many reasons why it is so obvious that the Genesis creation story is metaphorical.

BTW, Genesis was written after Moses died.
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Postby rayzoflyfe » Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:06 pm

Getting back to the days, it's a well-known fact that the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is around 13 billion years old. So either the days in Genesis are metaphors, or the Bible is wrong. Which is more logical from a Christian perspective?[/quote]

The earth is estimated to be 4.5 billion years old. There is a question as to whether some of the scientific communities ability to date is correct.

However, let me ask you this, since you are a christian. If God creates something, does he not create it perfectly?

And yet, when God created the heavens and the earth, it is without form and void. From science we gather that the earth was used before, we have evidence of dinosaurs and prehistoric life forms.

Yet they were destroyed? In the natural physical realm they say that it was a meteorite. But there is a theory called the gap theory that says basically that between verse 1 and 2 of genesis, something happened. That was where satan was thrown to the earth. Chaos came and chaos is destruction.

Biblical definition of choas is "disorder." So what if what you see in verse 2 is not creation from nothing, but restoration of the new earth for a new purpose?

Then science is studying prehistoic life forms as though there were continuing. What if they were not continuing? Then there is no missing link, because the first creation which included the dinosaurs, and the cave men, then have relatively little to do with life on earth now.

There was an end to the old, and totally new beginnings. Did God take the science he used before, the natural laws, the spiritual laws to create the earth and replenish it again? Oh yes. But there was an actual END to that evolutionary chain the gap between the dinosaurs and man and life as we now know it.

But as I said that is a theory.

What really really bothers me with regard to scientists is that they are so narrow minded. Oh did I really say that. They say christians are narrow minded but no thats not true. I'm willing to accept natural physical evidence, but are you willing to accept the existence of the supernatural.

I'm the one who emcompasses the whole. So now, who is narrow-minded.

Cerainly science has to be testable and proven. I have no beef with that.
But when you approach science from the standpoint that totally leaves the CREATOR himself out of the picture, I'm sorry, you cannot help but have error.

Why don't you start where he started.

He made us from the dust of the ground. How did he do that? Or is that just inconceivable to the narrow scientific mind?
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Postby alextemplet » Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:22 pm

rayzoflyfe wrote:The earth is estimated to be 4.5 billion years old. There is a question as to whether some of the scientific communities ability to date is correct.


Surely there is a little disagreement over the exact age of the earth, but overall it is known to be somewhere around 4.5 billion years old. Some estimates put it at 4.55 billion, some 4.6, but it's safe to say that any of these numbers is fairly close to the true age.

However, let me ask you this, since you are a christian. If God creates something, does he not create it perfectly?


How do you define perfection?

And yet, when God created the heavens and the earth, it is without form and void. From science we gather that the earth was used before, we have evidence of dinosaurs and prehistoric life forms.


"Without form and void" means the earth did not exist before God created it; otherwise it wouldn't have been God who created it! And it's a fact that other lifeforms inhabited the earth before humans; this is known from both paleontology and the Bible.

Yet they were destroyed? In the natural physical realm they say that it was a meteorite. But there is a theory called the gap theory that says basically that between verse 1 and 2 of genesis, something happened. That was where satan was thrown to the earth. Chaos came and chaos is destruction.

Biblical definition of choas is "disorder." So what if what you see in verse 2 is not creation from nothing, but restoration of the new earth for a new purpose?


Most theologians believe that Lucifer's rebellion occurred before the creation of the earth. This gap theory sounds more reminiscent of JRR Tolkein than the Bible.

What really really bothers me with regard to scientists is that they are so narrow minded. Oh did I really say that. They say christians are narrow minded but no thats not true. I'm willing to accept natural physical evidence, but are you willing to accept the existence of the supernatural.


As a religion, I find Christians are rather narrow-minded. Scientists can be as well but usuall aren't. The most open-minded religious group, I find, are agnostics.

I'm the one who emcompasses the whole. So now, who is narrow-minded.


Sounds like you have something to prove.

Cerainly science has to be testable and proven. I have no beef with that.
But when you approach science from the standpoint that totally leaves the CREATOR himself out of the picture, I'm sorry, you cannot help but have error.


I think I'm inclined to agree with you here. As I said before the beauty of the natural world never ceases to amaze me of God's power. It's no wonder so many great scientists believed in God.

He made us from the dust of the ground. How did he do that? Or is that just inconceivable to the narrow scientific mind?


I know how He did it. It's called evolution.
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Postby rayzoflyfe » Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:34 pm

I'm just telling you the theory.

If the time of the earth is 4.5 billion years old, scientists say that what happened at creation could not have been more than 7000 years ago. One theory for that is the gap theory.

That between verse 1 when god created the heavens and the earth that is when satan was flung to the earth.

The earth had to have existed, if not, God could not have thrown him here in the first place.

I can't prove the gap theory, that is why it is theory, not fact. But I do believe in it. When God creates, he creates it perfectly. And yet the earth is without form and void.

I believe that creation as you read it in the bible is restoration and reordering of what chaos/satan destroyed. I believe that not because of what I can prove scientifically, but because of experiences, however spiritual, I personally have had. I believe that is the gap in Genesis that was never fully explained in the Bible simply because they could not forsee Darwin and our time.

And one word that stands out in Genesis is where God said, be fruitful and multiply and RE-PLENISH the earth. Which gives the indication that we are doing something AGAIN.

As I said, the clues are there. And that is how God hides knowledge from man. He adds the clues, but it takes the spirit of God to arrive at truth. Mysteries hidden from the foundations of the earth.
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Postby alextemplet » Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:17 pm

I suppose you can believe as you wish, but like I said most theologians believe the rebellion occurred before the earth was created. And I've just checked in Genesis and I can't find where God says to "replenish" the earth, except after the flood. In the creation story all He says is to multiply and fill the earth. Unless I'm missing something?
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Postby rayzoflyfe » Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:37 pm

alextemplet wrote:I suppose you can believe as you wish, but like I said most theologians believe the rebellion occurred before the earth was created. And I've just checked in Genesis and I can't find where God says to "replenish" the earth, except after the flood. In the creation story all He says is to multiply and fill the earth. Unless I'm missing something?


Must be my translation. They took the original hebrew and translated it without all the thees and thous and used words as close to the hebrew meaning as they could get. I'll check a couple of others I have as well and get out my trusty concordance and check the hebrew as well. Not sure if genesis was written in hebrew but I think so. Usually its the New Testament that was translated from Greek
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Postby alextemplet » Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:40 pm

Yes, Genesis was originally written in Hebrew, as was most of the Old Testament and all of the New Testament. The translation I use is the Revised Standard Version (RSV), which most scholars agree is the most accurate translation currently available. That's why I use it; I like reading it as close to the original meaning as possible.

This is a fine example of why not to base doctrine too heavily on wording, because the wording might be wrong due to mistranslation. Things like this really make me wish I knew Greek and Hebrew, because I could just read the original texts. But I'm not fluent in either language, so I'll just have to trust the wisdom of Biblical scholars when they say which translations are accurate and which are not, and compare that one with a few other versions when possible, and a little background research never hurts.
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Postby mihaiionita_me » Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:14 pm

I think theat is hard to determine the evolution of human been because the mean formed in milions of years.
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Postby Linn » Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:16 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi rayzoflyfe :)


rayzoflyfe:
I'm just telling you the theory.

If the time of the earth is 4.5 billion years old, scientists say that what happened at creation could not have been more than 7000 years ago. One theory for that is the gap theory.

That between verse 1 when god created the heavens and the earth that is when satan was flung to the earth.

The earth had to have existed, if not, God could not have thrown him here in the first place.


satan was not flung down until modern times, and in the book of Job you will read he still could go to and from earth and heaven freely. When he was thrown down he was forbidden entrance any longer to heaven. Now he and his coherts are stuck here, (that is why there are more UFO sitings in modern times) :lol:



I can't prove the gap theory, that is why it is theory, not fact. But I do believe in it. When God creates, he creates it perfectly. And yet the earth is without form and void.


That is because Moses had knowledge from the "messengers", AKA Angels, celestrial travelers, he could not have possably known about unless told by beings with superior knowlege of the cosmos, than human of the time.: the facts of the stages a planet goes through before it becomes stabilized, First it is very gaseous, unstable and wobbly and is not even very round and is rotating extremely rapidly, and also orbit is faster than today and different, It takes a very long time for a new planet to develop "form" and stabilize. And the distance between the earth and sun was also different. Do not remember the numbers off hand.



believe that creation as you read it in the bible is restoration and reordering of what chaos/satan destroyed. I believe that not because of what I can prove scientifically, but because of experiences, however spiritual, I personally have had. I believe that is the gap in Genesis that was never fully explained in the Bible simply because they could not forsee Darwin and our time.

And one word that stands out in Genesis is where God said, be fruitful and multiply and RE-PLENISH the earth. Which gives the indication that we are doing something AGAIN.

]



The whole point was to establish a colony of humans here to enjoy the new planet. :)




As I said, the clues are there. And that is how God hides knowledge from man. He adds the clues, but it takes the spirit of God to arrive at truth. Mysteries hidden from the foundations of the earth.
[/quote]


I agree :)

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Postby loveangel » Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:08 pm

im really confused about where do humans come from? sometimes i get frustrated about this, is lucy nearly a human?
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