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observing evolution

Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.

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observing evolution

Postby biotchr » Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:57 am

Hey y'all, its been a while since ive posted. I have been a little busy.

I wanted to start a discussion about origins in respect to the cosmos, life, and life forms. All supposed evolutionary phenomena of these particular topics obviously occured way before recored, human history began.

Does that play a role in the ability to "observe" these phenomena? Specifically, I was a bit undone by NASA's claim to "travel back through time to witness these crucial steps in our origins".

Does NASA have a time machine? (note some sarcasm here)

check it out for yourself at the very bottom, the last sentence, of this website: http://origins.jpl.nasa.gov/universe/index.html
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Postby alextemplet » Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:05 am

The article is referring to the observation of distant galaxies. Since distant galaxies are so far away (several billion light years), the light that we see from them today actually left those galaxies billions of years ago. So, we see them today not as they look now, but as they looked billions of years ago. Observing those galaxies thus is literally looking back in time. It's a phenomenon commonly known to astronomers and often used to study what the universe was like billions of years ago.

Hope that helps! :wink:
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Postby nugget » Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:47 am

hello!

this may be off the topic, but nothing gives me more of a headache than trying to even comprehend the extensive nature of the universe. its so weird isnt it? what is at the root of it all ? i dont really give it much thought because its not really going to make much of a difference to how i live my life, but it would be a lie to say that not once has the thought of where does it end, how did it all start??

how weird man lol

but yes, as alextemplet said, the light that we see from distant stars are light years away meaning we are looking back into time.
the whole thing is weird to me ...
thats why biology is excellent. its relevant haha
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Postby biotchr » Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:48 pm

alextemplet wrote:The article is referring to the observation of distant galaxies. Since distant galaxies are so far away (several billion light years), the light that we see from them today actually left those galaxies billions of years ago.


And you would know this how?

So, we see them today not as they look now, but as they looked billions of years ago. Observing those galaxies thus is literally looking back in time.


That is a bold statement. There is no way to observe the past without a time machine. We may be able to see effects of certain causes from past events, this is true.

I would like to point out that observing effects independent of their known or suspected cause and studying them is standard operating procedures for science. However, observing effects for a cause that extends past our historical frame of reference is different than observing effects for which the known or suspected cause exists in our present state.

For instance if I observe skid marks, I understand that those effects are recorded from an event that I am familiar with. When I observe life and the existence of anything or anyone, whose origins extends outside recorded, human history, there is no event that I am aware of - other than maybe religiously which has no bearing on our scientific discussion.

I question the observability of any origin events that occurs outside recorded, human history as their is no way to form controls, apply variables, or test ideas as the event is historical in context never to be repeated again. Basically, science is stuck in a storytelling mode when investigating such supposed, historical phenomena.

More importantly the story is more religious in connotation due to our innate ability to ponder and form an opinion about the existence and role of a creator or lack thereof. This is characteristic of religion.

It's a phenomenon commonly known to astronomers and often used to study what the universe was like billions of years ago.

Hope that helps! :wink:


I kinda already knew the answer but I still think NASA took things to an extreme. The only way to "witness" such events would be in a time machine of which no one possesses.
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Postby biotchr » Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:08 pm

hello!

this may be off the topic, but nothing gives me more of a headache than trying to even comprehend the extensive nature of the universe. its so weird isnt it? what is at the root of it all ? i dont really give it much thought because its not really going to make much of a difference to how i live my life,


I have a feeling that your perpective on life may be faltered as your belief about where you have come from is erroneous. Where we BELIEVE we came from dictates much about how we live presently and where we will go in the future. This is what is so sad about evolution, which I call the ghetto story of origins, is that evolution, fundamentally, teaches that we have come from "nothingness", and, therefore, as a result, have nothing to live for as there will be nothing in the future. Those who live for the moment are perpetually wondering from where they came and where they are going - time will not allow them to escape their existence.


but it would be a lie to say that not once has the thought of where does it end, how did it all start??


This is a bit incoherent but it sounds like your wondering where you ultimately came from and where things are ultimately heading. That is good. Evolution will not answer those questions other than to say you came from, for all intensive purposes, apes or glorified apes. That is hardly definitive of where you have come from and only moves the ULTIMATE question further and further back. God is here now, and has been an integral part of His creation for thousands of years. God also has a plan. The last two sentences are exactly opposite of what naturalism holds to be true.

how weird man lol


Not if you have the right perspective which results from knowing the TRUTH about where you came form. It becomes not weird at this point but logical.


but yes, as alextemplet said, the light that we see from distant stars are light years away meaning we are looking back into time.


Not really. Empirically speaking the light we are observing from distant stars is distant light. When that light originated is the key. The religious time scale of evolution constructs a model which incorporates millions and billions of years based on their opinon of the existence and role of a creator. My religion does not as it is based on a supernatural creator and not a stupidnatural creator.

the whole thing is weird to me ...
thats why biology is excellent. its relevant haha


Biology is relevant when it does what it is defined as - when it studies life. When biologists question where life and different life forms originated, as well as anything that originated outside recored, human history, they enter into religious territory as something or someone must be held accountable for the existence of matter and energy. That means there is a creator and we are all biased about our opinion regarding the existence and role of our particular, alleged creator. Some would alledge that an eternal universe, eternal forces, nature, environment, or "nothingness" could be responsible. Since one is not allowed to formulate religious hypotheses on the basis of any of the creators formerly mentioned, all hypotheses investigating origin phenomena that transverses recorded, human history fails the scientific method as the investigation demands an opinion about the existence and role of a creator or lack thereof.
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Postby mith » Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:26 am

biotchr wrote:
I have a feeling that your perpective on life may be faltered as your belief about where you have come from is erroneous. Where we BELIEVE we came from dictates much about how we live presently and where we will go in the future. This is what is so sad about evolution, which I call the ghetto story of origins, is that evolution, fundamentally, teaches that we have come from "nothingness", and, therefore, as a result, have nothing to live for as there will be nothing in the future. Those who live for the moment are perpetually wondering from where they came and where they are going - time will not allow them to escape their existence.


We can find our own purposes in life. And I think following our own vision is ultimately more rewarding than subscribing to any predetermined "mission statement." Robots can do that.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
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Postby alextemplet » Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:11 am

Biotchr, I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but there are plenty of people who will probably back me up on this.

Fact: Galaxies are millions of light years away.
Fact: That means the light we see now left those galaxies millions of years ago.
Fact: That means we are seeing them now not as they curently appear, but as they appeared millions of years ago.
Fact: That means that looking at distant objects is literally looking back in time.
What don't you understand?

If I see dinosaur tracks, that means a dinosaur walked across that very same spot millions of years ago, right? But, how can we say this with certainty, if this event happened before recorded human history? We can say this with certainty because we don't need to actually observe an event to know that it happened. If we see the evidence of that event (in this case, the dino tracks), we can know what happened without actually having witnessed the event. Your recorded history argument is completely hollow.

And what, pray tell, is this truth that you claim to know so intimately? Please share it with us, so that we may be enlightened.
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Postby biotchr » Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:02 am

mithrilhack wrote:
biotchr wrote:
I have a feeling that your perpective on life may be faltered as your belief about where you have come from is erroneous. Where we BELIEVE we came from dictates much about how we live presently and where we will go in the future. This is what is so sad about evolution, which I call the ghetto story of origins, is that evolution, fundamentally, teaches that we have come from "nothingness", and, therefore, as a result, have nothing to live for as there will be nothing in the future. Those who live for the moment are perpetually wondering from where they came and where they are going - time will not allow them to escape their existence.


We can find our own purposes in life. And I think following our own vision is ultimately more rewarding than subscribing to any predetermined "mission statement." Robots can do that.


So what way do you propose that we got here that doesnt make us out to be like robots?

Its interesting that evolutionists claim that evolution says nothing about God and then to turn around and read your statement which makes it obvious about how you feel about God. Does evolution give you that kind of comfort? Do you now feel that you will not have to give account for your actions? And evolution says nothing about God - yeah right.
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Postby biotchr » Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:21 am

Biotchr, I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but there are plenty of people who will probably back me up on this.


The evolution think tank where all they think about is evolution.

Fact: Galaxies are millions of light years away.


True

Fact: That means the light we see now left those galaxies millions of years ago.


False - this depends on the creator you choose. A stupidnatural creator like an eternal universe would twiddle "its" "thumbs" (if "it" had thumbs and enough intelligence to do so) for billions of years while evolving the galaxies through natural processes in accordance with your mental construct.

My supernatural Creator snaps His fingers and it happens.

Fact: That means we are seeing them now not as they curently appear, but as they appeared millions of years ago.


False again. We presently see distant light that was created many of thousands of years ago in transit.

Fact: That means that looking at distant objects is literally looking back in time. What don't you understand?

If I see dinosaur tracks, that means a dinosaur walked across that very same spot millions of years ago, right? But, how can we say this with certainty, if this event happened before recorded human history? We can say this with certainty because we don't need to actually observe an event to know that it happened. If we see the evidence of that event (in this case, the dino tracks), we can know what happened without actually having witnessed the event. Your recorded history argument is completely hollow.


If you see dinosaur tracks you see dinosaur tracks like when you see skid marks. We know what makes skid marks relative to our knowledge of present data as it is within our historical frame of reference. Our knowledge about dinosaurs is limited as they existed outside our recorded history. As soon as you leave the boundary of recorded history you enter into an origins picture that is painted according to what creator you choose. Your creator must be completely hollow.

And what, pray tell, is this truth that you claim to know so intimately? Please share it with us, so that we may be enlightened.


The truth in regards to where we have come from and our ultimate destiny. You are not even allowed to offer truth by the very belief system to which you hold to so dearly. Why would we be here without any TRUTH in regards to where we have come from and where we are going? Infer from our conscious existence meaning and purpose from a Creator which logically extends from a beginning to an end. Its the most important inference you can make.
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Postby nugget » Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:38 am

Pardo me biotchr

but u cannot tell me that my perspective on life is faltered... i do not need to spend everywaking hour to see the truth about where life on earth came from dear.

What i do NOW is what matters, and whether a big bang is why im here or whether it some other unknown thing wont make me change how i go about makind decisions.

BIOLOGY is relevant FULL STOP. this isnt about religion

FYI i am a believer in God but it doesnt mean i quit my enquiry into life and leave all things up to that. If there is a cure for this disease to which i can find i WILL find it, if there is a way to slow down erosion in my local national park i WILL do it, regardless of Gods existance. They may seem like trivial things to you dear Biotchr, but we are here now and God did not put us here to sit here and contemplate His existance and try and understand His ways.

Evolution helps us understand the relationships between organsism and helps us to conserve life ,maintaining flora and fauna. Dont tell me evolution is teaching is we came from nothing.Or that it has ANYTHING to do with accounting for out actions. WHere are you getting this from!! It is It is the "nothing" u refer to as that we do not yet know about, that is what we do not need to know!! Anything before life ... WHO CARES? tell me how has it helped you?? how does it make ur perspective "unfaltered" because i would love to know.
Please, give me an example of how Gods plan is relevant to me??? i wont ever know it --- so who cares? as long as i love my neighbour, live right by Him and ect, the rest is not important to me.

Science is fabulous and just because i dont give 2 hoots about where the universe came from does not and will NEVER make my or any other persons life irrelevant or without purpose.

As if its not weird, i dont know about you, but i dont know anything weirder than the universe. We can basically never really know what is out there... so why think about it??? spend your energy on more productive things.

My reply was simply a light opinion that i had, and you went and made it seem so serious and really downgraded it. We are all different, i respect your opinion, not when you tell me mine is rubbish and i have no purpose then. :roll:

i still agree that stars are billions of light years away - we do not see them as they are at this moment!! because it takes TIME for the light to reach us, cmonnnnn

"
We can find our own purposes in life. And I think following our own vision is ultimately more rewarding than subscribing to any predetermined "mission statement." Robots can do that" ( i couldnt figure out the quote thing )


EXACTLY!!!
If anything a Creator would want you to do that!

Science isnt studied to prove there is no God or that there is no ulitmate supernatural creator. Dont go to the doctor then... if we couldnt study evolution how would we know about the way that disease changes for example?? its there in all the uinderlying principles ... doesnt it??
all we think is NOT evolution, what gave you that idea??

i hope this doesnt sound bad ... but thats just how i see things in response to this response[/quote]
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Postby alextemplet » Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:15 pm

biotchr wrote:
Fact: That means the light we see now left those galaxies millions of years ago.


False - this depends on the creator you choose. A stupidnatural creator like an eternal universe would twiddle "its" "thumbs" (if "it" had thumbs and enough intelligence to do so) for billions of years while evolving the galaxies through natural processes in accordance with your mental construct.

My supernatural Creator snaps His fingers and it happens.


No, true, and it has nothing to do with what creator I choose, it has to do with simple fact.

Quote:
Fact: That means we are seeing them now not as they curently appear, but as they appeared millions of years ago.


False again. We presently see distant light that was created many of thousands of years ago in transit.


If this is true (it's not), then every event observed at a million light years away or more never happened, and the entire universe is one huge lie. Sorry, but I refuse to believe in a God who intentionally lies to His creations.

Quote:
And what, pray tell, is this truth that you claim to know so intimately? Please share it with us, so that we may be enlightened.


The truth in regards to where we have come from and our ultimate destiny. You are not even allowed to offer truth by the very belief system to which you hold to so dearly. Why would we be here without any TRUTH in regards to where we have come from and where we are going? Infer from our conscious existence meaning and purpose from a Creator which logically extends from a beginning to an end. Its the most important inference you can make.


Your arrogance continues to insult me. How dare you have the audacity to claim that your falsehoods are somehow better than proven facts! And how dare you claim that my perspectives or beliefs are pointless and hollow! You do not know me, nor do you know my spiritual life.

I would like to know which creator it is that you "choose," but the God that I believe in is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Who gave His Son on the Cross as a sacrifice for our sins, and Who created the universe and everything in it. I have spent most of my adult life studying His Word (the Bible). I would like to know which god you believe in, since it is certainly not the God of the Bible.
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Postby biotchr » Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:36 pm

Pardo me biotchr

but u cannot tell me that my perspective on life is faltered... i do not need to spend everywaking hour to see the truth about where life on earth came from dear.


Then you must not be very proud of where you think you have come from. If you believe in evolution, I wouldnt blame you.

What i do NOW is what matters, and whether a big bang is why im here or whether it some other unknown thing wont make me change how i go about makind decisions.


Yes, it will, as where you believe you came from affects every decision you make NOW. Would you tell a ghetto child who decides to rob someone for the sake of what they need now that where they came from doesnt matter? Its a simple sociological fact that where people came from dictates what they do now and what they will do in the future.


BIOLOGY is relevant FULL STOP. this isnt about religion


Remarkably wrong - evolution is religion as it demands a creator just as any other creation myth. Just because scientists have figured out logically how to make the creator do a disappearing act doesnt mean that what they are proposing is not religion.

FYI i am a believer in God but it doesnt mean i quit my enquiry into life and leave all things up to that. If there is a cure for this disease to which i can find i WILL find it, if there is a way to slow down erosion in my local national park i WILL do it, regardless of Gods existance. They may seem like trivial things to you dear Biotchr, but we are here now and God did not put us here to sit here and contemplate His existance and try and understand His ways.


On what basis do you claim to know anything about this "God" you refer to? Why should I trust your opinion of this "God"? Do you know Him? Have you talked with Him?

What kind of God commands his creation to not "inquire into life"? I want you to "inquire into life" and God, but dont ruin science in the mean time. Actually it has two-fold effect - it ruins religion and science. Science is not meant to investigate such religious propositions and as a result we now have a cultish following who call themselves evolutionists. Religion should not bottle up the creator and make him/her/it use natural processes to do his/her/its work thereby turning the creator into a stupidnatural entity instead of a supernatural one.



Evolution helps us understand the relationships between organsism and helps us to conserve life ,maintaining flora and fauna.


No, evolution does not conserve species. A mentality of conservation biology saves species. Evolution supposedly informs us of where the diversity of species arose and supposedly provides us with a mechanism.

Dont tell me evolution is teaching is we came from nothing.


Oh, sorry to have offended you. So if you believe in "God" that you described previously above, "one" that does not require anything of you but to live for the "now", did "He" supposedly use evolution to put us here? How very convienient if not coincidental.

Or that it has ANYTHING to do with accounting for out actions.


We definitely would not want that now, would we. The teenagers I teach in high school would love to have you for a teacher.

What a strange religion evolution is - that just because some scientists could rationalize how we got here without God, we abandon morals and rules. Normally religions have the opposite affect.


WHere are you getting this from!! It is It is the "nothing" u refer to as that we do not yet know about, that is what we do not need to know!


Huh? If you are saying you think we do not need to know if God exists, then why did you say you believed in "Him"?


Anything before life ... WHO CARES?


Huh? Miller and Urey for two. I for one am very interested in where life came from which is the whole point of creation and evolution. Life is special and to downgrade it into something like gravity that "just happens" is rediculous. We barely even know what life really is and what it scientifically encompasses. We can characterize it as a force that reproduces, develops, and is organized but we are just attaching names like we do with gravity. To say that we originated by natural processes such as gravity is to negate the meaning of life which obviously affects societal decision making. After all do you think people would behave themselves a little bit more and not murder, rape, and plunder if they knew they would stand before God to give account? Do you think the children in my 4th block would behave themselves if they knew they would not have to stand before me and give account?

tell me how has it helped you?? how does it make ur perspective "unfaltered" because i would love to know.


Creation helps me understand the power of God. Evolution is evidence of man's rebellion against God and the Bible as it proposes a god that is anything but supernatural. I like to call him/her/it stupidnatural as it is or works by blind, unconscious, unintelligent, unpurposed, and unmotivated processes. The god of evolution is basically a deaf and dumb mute and is the exact opposite of what the Bible proposes. Our belief in a creator defines us and affects our worldview.

My perspective is unfaltered as it rests on the Bible that has been proven the world over on account of its self-verifying nature along with archeological and historical proofs.

What does your perspective rest on? Science? If so the religion founded upon science by the name of evolution is not even allowed in the first place by the very foundation it is built on.

Please, give me an example of how Gods plan is relevant to me??? i wont ever know it --- so who cares? as long as i love my neighbour, live right by Him and ect, the rest is not important to me.


God's plan is composed of more than just your neighbour unless you are of a different opinion. And again, I would like to know how you are forming your opinion about this "God" you have talked about. Do you make the rules of what this "God" expects?

The Bible is my handbook, what is yours? Science? Science is not meant to be used in such a fashion as it becomes scientism. Then when one uses science to form their opinion about God or the world in general its simply unethical on both sides of the slate, religiously and scientifically.


Science is fabulous and just because i dont give 2 hoots about where the universe came from does not and will NEVER make my or any other persons life irrelevant or without purpose.


The creator you have chosen or lack thereof not only gives definition of where the universe supposedly came from but where you came from. That is what is important. The creator cannot be detatched from one element of his/her/its creation so you can hoot and hollar that you believe in him/her/it but to deny that he/she/it put you and the universe here. That is not logical.

As if its not weird, i dont know about you, but i dont know anything weirder than the universe. We can basically never really know what is out there... so why think about it??? spend your energy on more productive things.


But a second ago you said you believed in God. Your story is crossed.

The biggest reason why people choose to ignore where they came from is because they are worred about where they are going.

My reply was simply a light opinion that i had, and you went and made it seem so serious and really downgraded it. We are all different, i respect your opinion, not when you tell me mine is rubbish and i have no purpose then. :roll:


I would agree with you here. However, it is tough not to offend people when discussing religion.

i still agree that stars are billions of light years away - we do not see them as they are at this moment!! because it takes TIME for the light to reach us, cmonnnnn


Yes, I believe that too. The debate centers not around what we are seeing now but WHEN that light originated. One decides when the light originated as they do with anything that originated before recorded, human history, by what creator they choose to believe in. This is religion not science.

We can find our own purposes in life.


If we can find our own purpose in life, if we have that capability, then why do so many not find purpose? If evolution happened then why must we "find purpose", why not have it handed to us on a silver platter? Why did evolution do what it did - form us with the ability to rationlize what "purpose" is and which "purpose" we need?

This is what is at stake - what is life and what does it mean. Religion logically answers such a question while science ultimately dodges it at every turn.
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