Have you guy heard of the Bio Sphere?

[Linn]

Well sorry U havent experience any miracles
David
If you did u probably wouldnt believe it any way???? would U???

There are things as yet un-explained

All I can say is the team of doctors who worked on me were,
and still are shaking there heads about how the hell I am not dead.

And the nurses were asking me if I saw a light
All I know is I felt the "breath of life leaving me"
and I said a prayer ( you can do that in a coma BTW)
and somehow I am alive again.
And that was only one incident

I have had other unexplained things happen.
Like one time when a deer jumped in to the middle lane of a three lane highway I was the car behind the car in the middle lane that hit the deer head on and the deer went way up in the air and landed in the rode.

I closed my eyes because there was nothing
I could do to avoid collision at that point..

And the next thing I knew I was looking at a huge
4 car crash in the rear view window. I have no idea
how i avided that. That is really some unexplained
phenomena ???? I dont know

But you need to have something happen personaly
I guess to believe.
That was a PM U know!!

But that is not why i believe in creation.
I believe in creation because it is more logical than amino acid self assembly etcc.....

Mutations on the other hand are fact.
If evolution were that easy to happen by itself why cant scientist get it to happen,
They can only do what is allowed to do by the
"rules" "laws" of "nature" that God implemented.

[alextemplet]

I've experienced many miracles myself, but that wasn't why I became Catholic. I already believed before the miracles happened, so they only strengthened my faith rather than caused it.

Scientists can make evolution happen and have observed it many times. I've already mentioned experiments with viruses, fish, and bacteria. I'd go over it again but now I'm starting to feel like you when you say that no one pays attention to what anyone else says. I feel so ignored.

[David George]

Let me tell one thing to you Linn and Alex you are Christians and why do you differentiate yourselfs saying you are catholics.I have a low opinion on catholics when I was a strong christian because they worshipped Idols.It is given very clearly in the bible that worshipping Idols are prohibited and still you do it.There are lot of experiments to prove evolution done in the lab and outside.I believed in miracles when I was a chirstian but then I think a mystery cannot be said as God.I have experienced different unknow things but I am not ready to say it a miracle.I have changed a lot in my life once I use to believe in ancient egyptian gods because they were more attractive to me then I thought christianity and the egyptian religion are related then I became a strong chiristian then I am what you see now.How stupid.

[alextemplet]

I changed religions a bit, too. I used to be Wiccan, then I was atheist, now I'm Catholic. And no, Catholics don't worship idols. The only thing we worship is God, just like all the other Christians, although I would argue that we do it in a way much more consistent with Biblical teaching. But then so would they, and that's an issue best discussed somewhere else.

[Linn]

Alex:Scientists can make evolution happen and have observed it many times. I've already mentioned experiments with viruses, fish, and bacteria. I'd go over it again but now I'm starting to feel like you when you say that no one pays attention to what anyone else says. I feel so ignored

Alex,
those experiments do not show proof of evolving
from one kind to an other. That a bacteria or virus can mutate
is obvious. And I know mutations can occur. They do not
proove anything, if they did it would be a major media news break.

I have gotten side tracked here about that discussion.
Its hard to focus when so many other things are brouht up.

are you refering to that old drawing of "fish to man" ????
That claims, (of course kids are not told it is speculation)

that the bones in the fin of the fish evolved into the bones
of the human arm and hand?

That is called speculation not proof.

perhaps you have been told (as a fact) ,
that the fossil record shows that there are also many
intermediate stages in this transition also????

Darwin said of this; "The number of intermediate varieties,...
must be truly enormous." That was his spectulation.

On the other hand, if the genesis account is factual,
then the fossil record would show "types" of living things,
with no partial, unfinished bones or organs.

Darwin, after examining the geological record, went on to say
"Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuedly does not reveal any such finely-graduated organic chain: and this,perhaps,is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory."

In one of the other threads on evolkution we had someone come on who has studied geology and he/she confirmed that this fact still holds true today.

take for example three stratum layers, where each layer is represented by one million years or so, what the facts show is species in the third and oldest layer are also found in the first layer with NO transitional or previous transition. That is the facts.

Darwin was so disapointed in this, that he had to admit that,

"the abrubt manner in which whole groups of species suddenly appear in certain formations has been urged by several paleontologists..as a fatal objection to the belief in the transmutation of species."

Goldfish can be made to mutate bubble heads, they are still fish.
we can take a wolf and selectively over time change characteristics so that it hardly resembles a wolf.
But it is still canine. The same thing with cats can happen.

And look at the ethiopian wolf, it is sorta like a coyote,
fox, wolf, and dingo looking. very beautifull!!

BTW a joke
did you know that divers have discovered the missing
link for blond people?

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/artic ... 0000000001

[Linn]

David:
Let me tell one thing to you Linn and Alex you are Christians and why do you differentiate yourselfs saying you are catholics

Wher did you get the idea I am Catholic????

I told you in A PM
(which I am not going to do any more with you)
That I was Raised a catholic (Irish Catholic) woooh
That doesnt mean i stayed Catholic and that is my business.

I think What the religion of Me and Alex is is not relevent ,
here because we are talking about the science of creation/evolution.
Of which can enbrace any faith.

I know you do not speak English so well (Or read it very well)
So maybe you misunderstand a lot??
I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

.

I believed in miracles when I was a chirstian but then I think a mystery cannot be said as God.I have experienced different unknow things but I am not ready to say it a miracle.I have

Actually that things just self assembled
out of nothing is a pretty big mystery

changed a lot in my life once I use to believe in ancient egyptian gods because they were more attractive to me then I thought christianity and the egyptian religion are related then I became a strong chiristian then I am what you see now.How stupid

Why is that stupid?
it just shows that you can think for yourself
and not just believe in every thing you Are told.
I think tht is a good thing to search for the truth.
but would you know it if you found it?

PS David let us know if you dont understand phrases
and English words etc.
and we can clarify for you.

[alextemplet]

The example with fish that I mentioned was an experiment conducted in Central America where researchers watched guppies evolve at a rate much faster than any transition shown in fossils. I believe I described this already and cited a book source, but like you said no one pays attention to the opposition around here. I wasn't talking at all about some sort of fish to man lineage, but since you mention it the bones in fish fins are exactly the same bones found in mammalian limbs, and I don't think that's a coincidence. Although I'm sure you'll disagree.

[Linn]

but Alex!!!
they were still guppies!!!
I dont dispute that kind of mutation.
see what I am saying here????

[alextemplet]

Yeah, I see what you're saying, but I still don't agree. If you change the wavelength of visible light by one nanometer per minute, at first you won't notice any change, but after a while you'll see a different color. Wait even longer and you won't see the light anymore, since it won't be visible; it'll be either ultraviolet or infrared, depending on which way it changed. Now it's a different kind. See my point?

Over just a few months, scientists have been able to watch fish, bacteria, and viruses evolve at a rate much faster than the fastest tranistions in the fossil record. To say that those transitions weren't possible is like watching a jet break the sound barrier, and then trying to say that it's impossible to fly faster than 100mph.

Now I'm shifting the burden of proof in your direction. Why wouldn't it be possible for one "kind" to evolve into another? Change is just change, and small changes over time lead to big changes, so why wouldn't that be possible?

[Linn]

OK
like I said No listen!!

FOR THE LAST TIME
what did they evolve or transition in to???????

[David George]

Well you need not be so angry that I told you that you were a catholic I am sorry but you need not be so angry and not even reply for the private message that I sent.You really made me angry by saying that my English is poor.And I donot know why you donot accept evolution.I think that you have understood the definition wrongly[looks like your english is not that good afterall ].A simple and narrow definition of evolution is the change in the gene frequency.I hope you can understand atleast this. .May be then you can can accept the examples given by Alex .But surely you will not saying that those miracle stories which I don't even know if you are saying the truth or not. .

[Mikeseno]

OK
like I said No listen!!

FOR THE LAST TIME
what did they evolve or transition in to???????

Just because in the incredibly brief period of time that the research into the guppies was conducted the guppies did not evolve into entirely new species does not mean that one species cannot evolve over a much longer period of time into what we recognise as another (new) species. For two species to become reproductively isolated, their genotypes must become markedly distinct and very strong natural selection pressures are required. Even if these conditions are met it must still take thousands of years for speciation to occur.

And of course for someone observing what may be evolution, it is always going to be difficult to pin point the precise moment when a new species has evolved from its ancestor as the process tends to be so gradual. And in response to an earlier point of yours about the problems with fossil records, of course they are limited But this is purely due to the fact that humans have only been able to unearth a tiny fraction of what fossils actually exist...just like we know very little about the life in the deep oceans. I can comfortably say that if we had access to all fossils there would be a clear transition to what we now consider one species from its ancestoral species.

Appologies for crashing what seems like a raging one-on-one debate, but I felt strongly moved to contribute![/i]