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hear the spring peepers-endangered

Discussion of the distribution and abundance of living organisms and how these properties are affected by interactions between the organisms and their environment

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Postby Linn » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:56 am

:shock:

oooohhh that not nice Ken :!:

I hit and killed a critter tonight it ran in front of my car I thought i hit a big rock or something and my passanger said I hit an animal. I never did that before :cry:
"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these".

~ George washington Carver
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Postby Ken Ramos » Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:02 am

Burning the hair off of a 'possum is just a way of saying "I am going to fix something to eat." When you skin wild game like 'possums, squirrels and rabbits, hair is usually left behind on the meat and it won't wash off. So you have to make a small fire and burn off the excess hair before cooking. Ya gotta remember we are a bunch of redneck hillbillies down here! "And a country boy can survive." :lol: :lol:
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Postby Linn » Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:27 am

:lol: :lol: :lol: lmao
thanx for my nightly laugh
and dr Stein gives me a morming laugh!

I never skinned an animal. I am a sorta city gal.

but there are some
city" critters that should be skinned. KWIM :?: :twisted:

Here I am writing stuff when
I am so tuckered and should be retiring :lol:

well silly stuff doesnt use brain power.

PS: I saw a bunny skinned on surviver man on the science channel. Very interesting. Now I know how to make mittens :wink:

Good Night ,
Ken :)
"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these".

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Postby Linn » Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:29 pm

more on Legionnairs disease.
Bacterium thAT IS VERY COMMON "on algae in freshwater streams, lakes and reservoirs'
from plant biol book : STERN pp 306

And Ken, i found out that what needs to be used to clean up this water is a bacteria called Pseudomonas cepacia. That is in my book too.
"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these".

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Postby Ken Ramos » Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:04 am

I doubt that there will be any meaningful effect from the bacteria on these ameba. Naegleria fowleri is a thermophelic amoeba and thrives in freshwater during the summertime when the temperatures are above 80 degrees F. As for Acanthamoeba, it thrives almost everywhere and could harbor the bacteria that causes Legionnairs. These amoeba are so commonplace in our environment getting rid of them would take eons if you could get rid of them. :shock:

Anyway the infection that both cause is very rare and we are exposed to them everyday. There is a good chance that both you and I as well as millions of others now carry these amoeba and do not even know it. That is how rare the infection is. Like I said they are more opportunistic than anything else. But once inside the olfactory (nasal) system they will invade the CNS and travel to the brain where the infection will result and become fatal to the host. :(

If you would like to learn more go to http://www.cdc.gov and look for Naegleria fowleri fact sheet or on their search enter: Primary Amebic Meningoencephalitis. You will get tons of information on this and other waterborne infections, some fatal/some not. Also search "free-living ameba." This will provide you with tons of information also. PAM and GAE are really not newsworthy items but every now and then they do make headlines. Another infection to look out for, especially if you wear contact lenses, is Amebic Kerititis. This too is caused by Acanthamoeba and can cause serious eye problems or even blindness. It is caused by not properly cleaning your contact lenses. Usually the infection is obtained because people use homemade cleaning solutions for their contacts. :wink:

Note: Definition: "free-living amoeba." Those that do not pay rent! :lol: :lol:
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Postby Linn » Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:07 pm

This is a good article on frog deformaties
complements of "London" (thank you)

http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/NewScien ... secker.htm

Ken, :)
is there a danger of "inhaling"
these amoebas from hose water that has been sitting
for a while during hot summer days?
the reason I ask is because I have heard hose
water is not safe to drink by children and I
noticed that every time i would first go to
use the hose to water my garden I start coughing
quite we a bit when the water that has been sitting
first comes out.
"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these".

~ George washington Carver
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Postby AstusAleator » Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:40 pm

This may be coming a little late, but if you guys remember that book i referred to earlier, A Plague of Frogs, I just found the essay I wrote summarizing it a couple of years ago. Here it is. Maybe some of the names or concepts it mentions can be of some help.

I would attach it, but the forum won't let me :(. So I'll paste it in.





Response to A Plague of Frogs

Never before have I seen so clearly the confusion, fallibility, and uncertainty involved in biology. A Plague of Frogs, by William Souder, details the efforts of scientists from all over North America attempting to solve the problem of a seemingly epidemic case of frog deformities. Souder describes the “world of biology” as a feudal society of fiefdoms, rival clans, and staunch individuals. As a journalist, Souder was possibly the only person in the investigation that was aware of every study that had been done or was ongoing. Each researcher or group such as the MPCA had their own line of study and weren’t overly willing to share results. The MPCA and EPA especially were caught up in the politics of environmental research, as they had the pesticide companies to worry about. Overall, the order of research and testing seemed rather sporadic and chaotic, taking nearly 6 years and still not coming to any concrete conlusion.
After the incidences of frog deformities were found, researchers began collecting data. At first the data collection was merely to see if there was truly a significant increase in deformity incidence. This would remain a debated topic for years. The trouble with this line of study was that it was hard to find a “natural” pond that wasn’t suffering from the outbreak of deformities. This made it very difficult to establish a control group from which to compare the deformed populations.
Researchers catching and studying the frogs looked for possible patterns that could indicate causes. Most of the locations were in agricultural or rural areas. More frogs with deformities were caught closer to the water, which could be explained simply by their impaired movements due to deformities. David Hoppe caught multiple species of frogs and noticed that the most severely affected species was the mink frog. Severity of deformities had a direct correlation with affinity for water. Of all the species, mink frogs spent the most time in the water. This indicated that whatever was causing the deformities was probably located in the water. More and more cases started popping up around the state, adding more complexity to the situation. The first pond had been mad-made, which could indicate toxins being stirred up from excavation. The second pond was natural though, creating a whole new list of hypothesis and problems. At this point, researchers were considering ground-water contamination, soil contamination (from nearby dumps), pesticides, or natural causes.
Across the state, and nation, researchers began doing experiments and researching previous materials. Each had their own idea of what might be causing the deformities. A French-Canadian researcher, Ouelet, found an extensive amount of research done on frog deformities that was only written in French, and thus had sole access to a wealth of information. For the most part, though, literature review yielded very little. Some literature was found on parasites being a cause of deformities early on in the study, but it was soon disregarded as a cause of the Minnesota deformities.
As research progressed, hypotheses were formed and debates divided researchers into camps. A scientist from California, Sessions, was firmly convinced that an encystic parasite, a digenetic trematode Manodistomum syntomentera was the cause of the deformities. He had done research on deformed frogs in California that showed a correlation between the presence of cystic parasites and leg deformities. However, many of the deformities found in the Minnesota ponds weren’t consistent with the types of deformities found in the California frogs. Later Pieter Johnson showed a correlation between the encystic parasite ribeiroia and frog deformities. The deformities that were seemingly caused by ribeiroia were more consistent with those in the Minnesota ponds, but when samples from the ponds were studies, it was shown that the Minnesota deformities were not caused by the presence of ribeiroia. Supporters of the parasite hypothesis explained the sudden surge in deformities by saying that there must have been a surge in population of a certain type of snail that is a carrier of the parasite.
Another largely debated hypothesis was the one of pesticides. It was very difficult to determine if the presence of pesticides was having an effect on the frogs. This was because pond waters where these frogs were found contained a myriad of natural and unnatural chemicals. The rate at which we’re introducing and mixing chemicals into our environment inspired one scientist to call it the biggest experiment of all. To sort through all of these chemicals and find one that could be the cause of the deformities would be a very long and difficult task. They had to research what kinds of chemicals were being introduced to the area and pick out the ones that seemed most likely to be causing the problem, and then try to isolate that chemical and tie it to the results. They did this with mixed results. An unforeseen factor resulted from their tests of methoprene, a pesticide. It was determined that methoprene combined with UV light caused deformities very similar to the ones that occurred in Minnesota. Methoprene by itself had no effect though. This tied to another field of research that hypothesized that UV light harmed frogs immune systems and damaged their cells during development. This line of research was never considered for the Minnesota frogs until the methoprene study results came in.
Throughout the course of studies, some researchers stuck steadfastly to the hypothesis that this was simply a natural occurrence. This ties to the parasite hypothesis, but not completely. Members of this camp argued that the deformities were simply due to natural variability in the ecosystem and occurred naturally. They suggested that the rates of deformities could have been exaggerated by people wanting to find something wrong. They also argued that there wasn’t a strongly established ratio of natural deformities in frog populations that the new results could be compared to. They pointed to predation, parasites, climate, and other factors that could possibly be causing the deformities.
Relating all of these studies to the public proved to be complicated and messy. As researchers didn’t really know what was happening, they could only postulate, and the public, not having all the data, drew their own conclusion. Two errors could occur, type 1 and type 2. Type one errors occur when one warns that something is dangerous and it turns out to be innocent. Type two errors occur when one claims something is harmless and it turns out to be dangerous. Plus, a researcher in the pesticide camp would give one answer while a researcher in the parasite would give another. Public attention called for a quick solution and answer, but as usual the scientific method plodded along at it’s own pace, slowed down and confused by bureaucracy.
At the end of the book, there is still no real conclusion, no answer as to what is causing the deformities of the frogs. The reader is left with a conglomeration of data and hypotheses. The data from each camp is all very relevant and convincing if seen alone. There are many biological processes that occur in frog development, and many different ways that deformities can be caused.
Developmental problems in frogs are a huge warning for the rest of us. Frogs are, after fish, some of the most primitive vertebrate species on earth. They represent a branch of evolution that hasn’t grown much from where it separated. The primitive anatomy of frogs shares many common homologous features with all modern vertebrates, including humans. Something that affects the development of frogs could quite easily end up affecting ours as well. Frogs are seen as an indicator, or sentinel species, as they respond to environmental and pathological conditions similarly to how humans would. Since they are smaller, smaller doses cause effects in them, thus acting as a natural laboratory. Our job is then to figure out what is wrong with them.
The pesticide researchers looked at endocrine inhibitors and toxicology for the answer to the frogs’ deformities. One scientist found that the frogs at the Ney pond were wintering in the Minnesota River, which would indicate that if toxins were being introduced in the river, the deformities in the young frogs was being caused by maternal transfer. Maternal transfer occurs when toxins stored in the mother’s body are transferred to the egg, and are then stored in the tissue of the embryo. The main types of toxins that were considered were pesticides, specifically endocrine inhibitors. Endocrine inhibitors affect the hormonal reactions that occur in developing organisms. The pesticide that was finally chosen for specific studies wasn’t chosen because it was an endocrine inhibitor, however. It was chosen because one of the chemicals that it degraded into strongly mimicked retinoic acid, which has been proven to stimulate leg bud cells in frogs. Too much retinoic acid has been shown to cause leg deformities very similar to the Minnesota deformities. As I mentioned before, studies of this chemical showed no results except when UV light was introduced. The specific effect of the UV light is merely speculated so far.
The parasite researchers used their detailed knowledge of ecology and parasites to form their hypotheses. Sessions showed that the cystic parasites accumulated in the pelvic region of a developing frog. The parasites go through three hosts during their lives. They live in snakes, and lay their eggs. The eggs are ejected with the feces, often ending up in or near water. From here they enter water snails and develop into a more advanced larvae stage. They leave the snail and seek out tadpoles. They enter the tadpole either via orifices or by simply boring through the skin. They cluster in what will become the pelvic region of the frog. Scientists hypothesized that their presence in that area of the developing frog effects the intercalation of the leg bud cells, causing extra or mirrored limbs. Intercalation is the interaction between cells as they become organized into tissue. Each cell knows its place and its function in the overall organization of the tissue. As I have said, test results were varied. Parasites were shown to cause some deformities, but no direct correlation was ever shown between parasites and the Minnesota deformities.
Much is still unknown about the occurrence of frog deformities. It is still possible that there is no unnatural cause for this outbreak, or that there isn’t even an outbreak. Many causes have been hypothesized and each of them has been proven partially valid, but none have been established as answers. The book ends on a mysterious note, leaving the reader squirming and screaming for answers. It makes one want to pick up a field notebook and go count frogs. I had no idea that this had taken place, and this book opened my eyes to yet another ecological phenomenon that might or might not be directly caused by human disregard for the environment. As an Environmental Studies major, I appreciate the importance of the issues broached in this book. I have also gained a greater understanding of how science is done in the real world. It’s funny to think of the blind faith people put on scientific studies. If it has been published in a journal or scientific report, it’s scientific truth. Well, this book just goes to show the multi-faceted nature of science, and its vagueness.
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Postby Linn » Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:04 pm

Astus,
WOW :shock:

Thank You for that article you wrote.
it is very interesting. Since these studies
are on -going perhaps we will soon know
more on the subject.

I wish I had collected frogs in the area in question
before they dissapeared so I could have documented
deformities
if any in the population. I will be listening for
signs that the peepers have returned to
this area this year. Although they would be
migratory since i have already observed
their disappearence.

But I will be looking in other areas also and perhaps
find deformities there.

One thing i noted in that article is that the frogs
are often found in agricultural or rural areas,
and this is the case I have here.

Thanx again for that info,
Lynne
"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these".

~ George washington Carver
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Postby Ken Ramos » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:20 pm

Lynne asks:
Ken,
is there a danger of "inhaling"
these amoebas from hose water that has been sitting
for a while during hot summer days?
the reason I ask is because I have heard hose
water is not safe to drink by children and I
noticed that every time i would first go to
use the hose to water my garden I start coughing
quite we a bit when the water that has been sitting
first comes out.


I do not think so Lynne. Although I would not advocate drinking from the hose untiil the water that has been sitting in it has been flushed out by the freshwater.

It is interesting though that you mentioned inhalation of the amoebas. Yes, it is quite possible to inhale the dormant cysts of various types of microorganisms, including amoebas. Acanthamoeba especially. The cysts of some of these organisms are picked up by the wind and carried along with the dirt and dust from dry lakes, creeks, or pond beds. We inhale these particles in minute quantities every so often and as I previously stated these amoebas occur naturally in our environment and we are exposed to them daily. Infection from such are rare at the moment and as I said they seem to be opportunistic organisms. I once read that a babys throat and nasal cavities are full of these amoebae at birth but they are discharged much later on as the child matures. Actually they are nothing to be worried about or alarmed over, however they are something to be considered with the up coming hot days of summer. :D

Getting back to the frogs, that is some article! :o To bad that you did not get to take specimens of the peepers Lynne. :( I do not know if deformities have anything to do with the decline of populations, could be though but it was an interesting article just the same. :D
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