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Specific memory in Innate Immune System

For discussing the functions of different structures of all organisms.

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Postby baikuza » Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:06 am

have you try a dictionary? (i'm not yet use it)
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Postby baikuza » Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:11 am

have you try a dictionary? no immunobiology on this forum dictionary
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Postby Dr.Stein » Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:03 am

(1) Lectin is the simplest antigen recognition system in organisms, it can discriminate self vs nonself molecules based on pattern-recognition mechanism, before receptor is developed. When receptors are available, the organisms will use PRRs. For instance, Amoeba discriminates between food and other particles via lectin (it doesn't have any receptors yet), whereas macrophage discriminates between pathogen and nonpathogenic molecules by Toll-like receptor (TLR-4).

(2) That three-category is his opinion. IMO, self vs nonself antigen recognition is included to innate thing. Basically, thru what I read from my beloved Janeway's, the development of immune system can be divided into two category:
(a) Innate immunity or nonspecific immunity, which antigen recognition is based on pattern-recognition system, the immune response generated is nonspecific to a certain pathogen that is called as "one:one";
(b) Adaptive immunity or specific immunity or acquired immunity, which antigen recognition is based on MHC:peptide recognition system presented by APCs and memory, the immune response generated is specific or "one:one".

(3) Immunology studies the mechanisms on how the body recognizes self and foreign materials, how the body prevents, defenses, attacks, elliminates, and clears pathogens. The object is usually human or other mammals. In Immunobiology, we learn not only human or mammals as the object but also another vertebrates and even invertebrates, and also the evolutionary immune system.

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Postby baikuza » Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:10 pm

hm.. Mr. admin please update the dictionary please....

by this forum dictinary i still do not know, really.

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Postby Nite » Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:38 pm

[quote="Dr.Stein] (a) Innate immunity or nonspecific immunity, which antigen recognition is based on pattern-recognition system, the immune response generated is nonspecific to a certain pathogen that is called as "one:one";
(b) Adaptive immunity or specific immunity or acquired immunity, which antigen recognition is based on MHC:peptide recognition system presented by APCs and memory, the immune response generated is specific or "one:one" [/quote]

why do both nonspecific and specific are called as "one:one"?

btw, after reading DrKurtz's paper, I was thinking that even if vertebrate (let's say human) innate immune system have specific memory, would it make much difference to our immune system? since the acquired immunity is already doing a great job through its specificity and memory?
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Postby Dr.Stein » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:06 pm

Hmm you misinterpreted my sentence or it was me that made a mistake on sentence building, sorry then :oops:
I was trying to say that "The immune response (of innate immunity) is nonspecific to a certain pathogen, the specific one is called as "one:one".

Well, you should remember that adaptive immunity will be induced only when innate immunity can't handle the pathogen ellimination. Adaptive immunity will come to help after 96 hours, when there is still antigen within the body and innate immunity gives up.
Dr.Kurtz suggested that if the innate immunity already has a memory, it would work for better to recognize antigen. I think the memory he means could be the pattern recognition mechanism. He sent me another papers to understand more to his opinion.
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Postby Nite » Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:38 pm

haha. It's okay.

If the innate immune system has specific memory, could it become so effective that acquired immune system is not required anymore?

In the paper it was mentioned that if pathogen could be identified correctly, then there's no need to identify all non-self. The sentence is not really true isn't it? Non-self can be food also (as you mentioned), so thr's a need to differentiate it so that they won't reject it rite?


there is another paper regarding this? really? do you think it will be likely for innate system to have specific memory?

Personally, after reading the paper, all the evidences that are quoted are from invertebrates. What cross my mind is that even if specific memory exists in invertebrates' innate system, it may not exist in vertebrates coz there's not much use of it and may have been "discard off" when the vertebrate acquire the "adaptive immune system" during the evolution..
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Postby Nite » Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:06 am

Dr.Stein wrote:Well, you should remember that adaptive immunity will be induced only when innate immunity can't handle the pathogen ellimination. Adaptive immunity will come to help after 96 hours, when there is still antigen within the body and innate immunity gives up.


dr. stein, the innate immunity does not give up when acquired immunity is in action, doesn't it? examples: macrophages actually become more active after T-helpers are activated, futhermore NK cells are still active. 8) 8)
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Postby victor » Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:08 pm

Yup, macrophages become more active because the process of secreting IL-12 induces T-cell to secrete IFN-gamma which acts as MAF (Macrophage Activating Factor) that "tell" those macrophage to fuse endosome with their lysosome become Endolysosome...
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Postby Dr.Stein » Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:55 am

Nite wrote:
Dr.Stein wrote:Well, you should remember that adaptive immunity will be induced only when innate immunity can't handle the pathogen ellimination. Adaptive immunity will come to help after 96 hours, when there is still antigen within the body and innate immunity gives up.


dr. stein, the innate immunity does not give up when acquired immunity is in action, doesn't it? examples: macrophages actually become more active after T-helpers are activated, futhermore NK cells are still active. 8) 8)

Naah! Innate immunity is totally stopped when adaptive immunity is activated.

Well, you should remember that macrophage is not typical innate immunity cell. It also acts as APC for activating adaptive immunity. The time when innate immunity is about to stop and adaptive immunity is about to begin is called "induced immunity", which dendritic cells and macrophage switch their function from antigen-eating to become antigen-presenting. In adaptive immunity, macrophage does not engulf antigen by phagolysosome mechanism (eating function) anymore like it use to do in innate immunity, it engulf antigen to be processed as peptide and will bring it back to its surface to be presented with MHC (APC function).

NK cells are not present in adaptive immunity. NK cell (CD3-) does not exhibit antigenic specifity, so it just belongs to innate immunity. It is CTL that has a similar action as NK, it is actually T-cell (CD3+, CD8+) not NK cell.

Nite wrote:If the innate immune system has specific memory, could it become so effective that acquired immune system is not required anymore?

I don't think so. Both has advantages and disadvantages. We cannot rely on only one of them. For example, we will not produce any antibodies if we do not have adaptive immunity, because lymphocytes that responsible on producing antibodies are active during adaptive immunity. Lymphocyte do nothing in innate immunity. Phagocytes play a role there. If we do not have innate immunity, means that no phagocytes, no macrophage, no dendritic cells, who will activate adaptive immunity because no APCs? IMO, adaptive immunity must be available.

Nite wrote:In the paper it was mentioned that if pathogen could be identified correctly, then there's no need to identify all non-self. The sentence is not really true isn't it? Non-self can be food also (as you mentioned), so thr's a need to differentiate it so that they won't reject it rite?

You should remember that nonself things can be pathogenic or nonpathogenic. Pathogenic must be identified, yes. If all pathogenic things are already identified, well, yes, we can ignore nonpathogenic things because they will not induce immune response but immune tolerance, means that they are welcome to our body freely, they will not generate any diseases.
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Postby victor » Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:51 am

Dr.Stein wrote:NK cells are not present in adaptive immunity. NK cell (CD3-) does not exhibit antigenic specifity, so it just belongs to innate immunity. It is CTL that has a similar action as NK, it is actually T-cell (CD3+, CD8+) not NK cell.


Specialized become CD4+ and CD8+ boss....the CD3 is just like a molecular marker for T-cell...
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Postby Dr.Stein » Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:59 am

I KNOW it. You just didn't get my point. So, next time don't cut my sentence and just partly understand it, do it as a whole paragraph, ok? :evil: ;)

I tried to explain that NK cell is CD3- whereas all lymphocytes is CD3+. Therefore, CTL, which is CD3+, is actually lymphocyte, different from NK cell that lack of that marker.

Understood? :twisted:
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