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Flaws of Life in a Tube

Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.

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Postby Tomn » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:43 pm

1)He's God. He doesnt come from anything. If He came from somewhere, or someone, or some primordial slosh, He wouldnt be God. He was existing before the beginning and He is here today.

He's God. He is the creator of all things, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. He is not created, but creator. Nothing created God. If he was created, He wouldnt be God.

What I tell you is fact. God is, and he was, and will always be. But you will probably dismiss this because you do not believe.

My favorite testimony of God is the true story of the sailor who smoked. He said to the ship's Chaplain: "God isnt real. Hey, if God's real, tell Him to make me stop smoking." Now it was known that this man smoked every day after lunch, and that he was used to the swaying ships enough that he didnt get sea sick anymore. The next day, he went out after lunch to smoke. He took a deep breadth and said "See. God doesnt exist." At that moment, he vomited over the side of the ship. The next day, he went out to smoke after lunch. He took a deep breath of the cigarette. "see. God doesnt exist." And again, he vomited over the side of the ship. Adn the third day, he went out after lunch. He took a puff of the cigarette. "See. God doesnt exist." And he vomited over the side of the ship.
How do we know the story? Because he came back the 4th day to the Chaplain, and believed on Jesus. The true story is written in the book by the very chaplain who was talking to this sailor. The book is called "A Man Called Peter".

Otherwise, besides this man's personal experience with God and smoking, he would have never believed on Christ. I can promise you this: take any part of the word of God and apply it, believe it. You will see that God is the God of miracles, and that He exists.

2)The above story is evidence that Jesus has these powers.

You know what Jesus did for every man that no other religion offers? Did any savior of any other religion ever die for their believers? None other exists. No other religion promises life after death, or the security of a good life after death. Apollo is one of the many gods of something called Greek MYTHOLOGY. When was the last time you've heard that Apollo, or any Greek or Roman god ever healed or done anything good for anyone? Never. In fact, the Greek gods are described throughout mythology as a bunch of squabbling, selfish immortals.

Muhammad? He just offers a bunch of wisdom. Muhammad is dead, and he did not raise from the dead as Jesus did. He did not die for his people, nor offer any sacrifice to his people. Muhammad does not give his life or his mind or love, peace, joy, and mercy that Jesus has. Muhammad cannot answer the question of how this world and the universe came to be.

3)I know plenty about evolution. Its just that I think it is not possible. We both know of the primordial slosh, divergent evolution, life in a tube, speciation, coevolution, genetic drift, mutations as the evolutionary engine, evolutionary time scale, geographical isolation, divergent evolution, punctuated equilibrium, genetic correction over time, common ancestry, and geological timescale. I know plenty on how it works.

I know that there is NOT ONE SINGLE fossil of a common ancestor. I know that the modern human "appeared 40,000 years ago", and that if you grow that population from then by applying the correct observed rules, you do not get todays population but a number with 90 digits. I know that the probability of cell development from primordial slosh is 0.000000009%, or 1 in 104,478,296, which is practically impossible. Evolution can explain at an impossible stretch the formation of an organism, but cannot explain the appearance of the genetic code. I know that no trace of the primordial slosh has ever been found. I know that in the primordial slosh, evolutionists do not account for the fact that there are ocean currents that disrupt collections of elements in order to combine into higher forms, and that evolutionists do not account for the fact that a slosh of many elements could lead to elements interfering with the formation of higher elements. Such as amino acids that try to combine to form DNA or proteins, but are somehow uninterrupted by another random element in the slosh.
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Re:

Postby aptitude » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:20 am

Tomn wrote:
JackBean wrote:but you believe that nothing formed everything.


I have never said this.


Tomn wrote:1)He's God. He doesnt come from anything. If He came from somewhere, or someone, or some primordial slosh, He wouldnt be God. He was existing before the beginning and He is here today.


Contradiction much?

Tomn wrote:2)The above story is evidence that Jesus has these powers.

I'm not impressed. How do you know this story (along with others in the Bible "demonstrating" Jesus's powers) is true? Any scientific backing? Any historical evidence?

Tomn wrote:You know what Jesus did for every man that no other religion offers? Did any savior of any other religion ever die for their believers? None other exists. No other religion promises life after death, or the security of a good life after death. Apollo is one of the many gods of something called Greek MYTHOLOGY. When was the last time you've heard that Apollo, or any Greek or Roman god ever healed or done anything good for anyone? Never. In fact, the Greek gods are described throughout mythology as a bunch of squabbling, selfish immortals.

Muhammad? He just offers a bunch of wisdom. Muhammad is dead, and he did not raise from the dead as Jesus did. He did not die for his people, nor offer any sacrifice to his people. Muhammad does not give his life or his mind or love, peace, joy, and mercy that Jesus has. Muhammad cannot answer the question of how this world and the universe came to be.


Hmm... so your belief in Christianity is based on how spiritual and supposedly how kind your prophet is rather than how much evidence there is to support your beliefs? Sounds like an irrelevant appeal to me.

Tomn wrote:I know that there is NOT ONE SINGLE fossil of a common ancestor. I know that the modern human "appeared 40,000 years ago", and that if you grow that population from then by applying the correct observed rules, you do not get todays population but a number with 90 digits. I know that the probability of cell development from primordial slosh is 0.000000009%, or 1 in 104,478,296, which is practically impossible. Evolution can explain at an impossible stretch the formation of an organism, but cannot explain the appearance of the genetic code. I know that no trace of the primordial slosh has ever been found. I know that in the primordial slosh, evolutionists do not account for the fact that there are ocean currents that disrupt collections of elements in order to combine into higher forms, and that evolutionists do not account for the fact that a slosh of many elements could lead to elements interfering with the formation of higher elements. Such as amino acids that try to combine to form DNA or proteins, but are somehow uninterrupted by another random element in the slosh.


1. Look in the fossil record.

2. The human population does not grow exponentially.

3. The probability of cell development from "primordial slosh" is not 0.000000009%, it is close to 1, because it can be demonstrated in the lab.

4. The earth's atmosphere is no longer reducing, so abiogenesis does not spontaneously occur in the present.

5. Ocean currents near deep sea hydrothermal vents?

6. What "random element"?
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Postby aptitude » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:27 am

Actually your second point reminded me of this comic:

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?db=comics&id=938#comic
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Re: Flaws of Life in a Tube

Postby Tomn » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:41 pm

1)I dont think you understand. God didnt come from a primordial slosh. He is the God of this universe, existing before time in the spirit realm. He is not bound by the rules of this world. In fact, He makes the rules of this world.

God didnt come from anything. He wasnt made from anything. He is creator, not created, and not randomly formed from a mesh of chemicals.

If he was created from something, He wouldnt be God.

2)Historical evidence? History is what is in the past, yes? Well that IS history. It actually happened. Those events are recorded in the book "A Man Called Peter". This actually happened. Im not making up a story. Im recounting to you actual events.

What happened to that man was especial proof to him because it happened to him. It is his, what I call, human experience. And human experience is undeniable, especially to the people that experience it personally. But to those around that person, it may be ignored simply because you do not want to believe.

3)There's a saying I heard from a pastor: Its not designed to make sense, its designed to make faith.
Faith in God that is. It is based on belief. However, the bible is scientific.

Do you know of the red sea crossing? The bible describes where Israel crossed the Red Sea as a place where they could only go forward or back and where the bottom of that sea is sandy in order to allow crossing. There is such a place in the Red Sea called Pi-Hahiroth. There, the bottom is sandy and there is a thin path in the mountains where the Israelites could not go left or right. Also, the bible sais that the Egyptian army went after the Israelites. Therefore, the chariot wheels would be in the bottom of the sea, right? In only one spot in the whole sea, and one spot only, right where the mountain path leads, there are chariot wheels at the bottom of the ocean.
exodus-wheel01-sm.jpg

comparison axel and wheel.JPG


The most convincing evidence is that human femurs have been found at the cite. Before you question me about it: yes, it has been confirmed that they are human femurs.
wheels5.gif

__________________________
1)There are the McFall and Tailor trails where dinosaur footprints have been found on the surface. Dinosaurs are supposed to have existed, at their last point in history, 65 million years ago, and are not supposed to be found in the surface. And yet footprints are on the surface. This shows recent existence. Evolution's geological timescale does not conform to this.

Also, there are no intermediate fossils of any kind, at all. I was in my AP Environmental class, and we watched a video on evolution, which was full of evolutionary scientists and only evolutionary scientists. They admitted to the nonexistence of intermediate fossils.

However, the explanation for this was rapid evolution, which has never been known to occur.

Also, do not make claims. Evidence please. Only evidence, not claims without base. You are an evolutionist and would know the best examples of this. Please show them to me, because I have seen none. However, I have seen the fossils claimed to be intermediate, and there are flaws in these. But nonetheless, please show them that we should debate them here.

2) Look at any chart of a population's growth and you will see that populations grow exponentially. This is not my assumption or conjecture: populations grow exponentially. This is a fact. Its not my fact, but a fact which has been observed throughout history. Look it up anywhere in google. You will clearly see that populations grow exponentially.

3)In no lab has there been the replication of the development of the cell. Life in a Tube has flaws, especially in the fact that he ran a constant stream of electricity to simulate a sporadic event with a large time period in between each event. No cell has ever been produced from a organized, isolated assembly of the right elements, which make up the cell, in a tube. Experiments do not take into consideration that the primordial slosh had a host of elements, which does not allow elements to be isolated. For example, amino acids are not the only element in the primordial slosh. Life in a tube is not an accurate representation of this.

4) I looked into abeogenesis. I do not understand how a shrinking atmosphere has to do with the formation of the cell from simple chemicals.

5)There are ocean currents near deep sea hydrothermal vents. They are called upwellings. Upwellings are currents from the bottom which bring up nutrients and CO2 to the top level of bodies of water. These are necessary to the survival of species, as CO2 is pumped to the surface for algea (freshwater) or plankton (saltwater) to use, and nutrients are most plentiful at the bottom.

Also, the building blacks for amino acids would be far to diluted in water. Also, there are

6)Doesnt the primordial soup contain more than just the simple building blocks of amino acids? Or has the theory been composed to say that the primordial soup did not contain anything else besides the building blocks of amino acids?

Also, I find it very unlikely to the point of impossibility that amino acids would accidentally combine to form just the 20 proteins necessary for life, especially because of upwellings. Also, there are 10^130 different combinations of amino acids. I find it hard to believe or find it possible that just 21 combinations would happen to form out of the many that are possible.

Also, the minimum number of proteins that are needed for life are 456.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html
http://www.pnas.org/content/93/19/10268.abstract
The argument in TalkOrigins is that the number of 256. Their source, the second link, shows that the reason for the reduction is that those genes subtracted are harmful to the organism (parasite specific, functional redundancy). However, this is not proof that it is not necessary to life, but that those genes are harmfulor redundant.

Also, in reference to the comic: a low blow, but I see the comical intent and value none the less. Although, not to be rude or sardonic, I am not laughing.
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Re: Flaws of Life in a Tube

Postby zephidel » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:33 pm

Hmmm... why did this thread turned into a debate regarding God?
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Re:

Postby wpseofriendly » Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:33 pm

Tomn wrote:1)He's God. He doesnt come from anything. If He came from somewhere, or someone, or some primordial slosh, He wouldnt be God. He was existing before the beginning and He is here today.
[... Quote snipped for brevity...]


If you believe in god so much why do you have to try and convince other to believe the exact same way as you do. I think the beauty of humans is the diversity in thinking. We don't have to believe in the same way, it would be a very grey world if we did.
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Re: Flaws of Life in a Tube

Postby JackBean » Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:59 pm

Tomn wrote:What I tell you is fact. God is, and he was, and will always be.

Nice fact, what about some proof?

Tomn wrote:My favorite testimony of God is the true story of the sailor who smoked.

I like the book about third world war. I think it was called Red storm. Since it was written on paper, it must be truth, right?
So, if the God exist, why doesn't he make us believe in him?

Tomn wrote:No other religion promises life after death, or the security of a good life after death.

And if you kill lots of unbelievers, you will be rewarded even more, right?

Tomn wrote:Also, do not make claims. Evidence please. Only evidence, not claims without base.

What about some evidence for God?

Tomn wrote:Look at any chart of a population's growth and you will see that populations grow exponentially.

It's growing exponentially now, because we have enough food and stuff to live from.
http://www.biolib.cz/en/main/

Cis or trans? That's what matters.
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Postby Tomn » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:08 pm

zephidel:
I came here to debate facts and Flaws of Life in a Tube, which still stands. I looked back on the comments, and it was actually JackBean who mentioned that

[quote="JackBean"]So, it's hard for you to believe that nothing formed into something, but you believe that nothing formed everything. Quite interesting.[quote]

And from there, it was a debate. It seemed that JackBean used starting a religious with me as a cop out for admitting that Life in a Tube is not an accurate representation of the supposed "primordial slosh". I argued the evidence, and when properly argued, it did not stand up for evolution. Thus, a cop out.

wpseofreindly:
I honestly dont feel the need to convince others. As I said above, I wasnt even the one who brought it up. JackBean began that conversation. I came here to debate the viability and evidence of the theory of evolution. And as I said, I debated this to the end with JackBean, and at least in my mind proved him wrong, and he switches over to a religious cop out.

But I appreciate the debate. Although, I will never be able to convince this man over the Internet. I have given him several examples, even on different threads, about Gods power and proof of His existence. Honestly, all I can do is pray that the holy ghost will move on his heart, for I could never convince him of my own ability. When a heart is hardened, it takes God to bring it back.

JackBean:
1)I have told several accounts of God. The sailor who smoked. You know the example already. You quoted it. It is a true account only explained by God's power, which was able to stop this man from smoking.

Another is the man who went to hell.
Another man published it in a book called "A Place Called Heaven"

2)If you want something on paper, read the Bible. Its filled with how God works. And if you honestly want to see if God is real, pray "God, make yourself real to me."

3)You are taking that WAY out of context and adding to that. I think both of us know that you are doing this. Let me make this clear: whatever stuff you're talking about when you say "kill lots of unbelievers", I dont believe in that. I am a Christian, not an Islamist. No where in the Bible does it say to kill unbelievers.

4)It disproves the theory, so you're making excuses. Population have and always will grow exponentially.

5)What you believe drives your search. As one that has had direct experience with both creationism and evolution, I have found that creationism makes much more sense. Life comes from a alive creator rather than a dead chemical. Evolution actually contradicts itself in this when it sais "Life comes from life."

But we are all in out own ways biased, and will not look at things objectively. Actually, I have known evolutionists to ignore evidence and attempt to shut down the debate.
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Re:

Postby Gavin » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:39 am

Tomn wrote:I think


Please supply some evidence of this assertion.
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Postby Tomn » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:31 am

1)Do you remember when you attempted to shut down the debate in Irrefutable Facts Against Evolution? about22923.html You should read the facts. Get back to me when you read them.

Also, this thread is proof against theory of evolution. There are facts here. Go to page one, read, then debate or move on.

2)Further evidence against the theory of evolution is the fact that it has not been replicated in the laboratory, observed in nature, or shown in the fossil record.

3)There is evidence claimed to support evolution, and I do not claim to know all of that evidence, but the "evidence" which has come across my path has been insufficient.

4)I'm surprise you survived that head vs rock bashing.
My offer still stands.
You know of "evidence" for evolution that I dont.
Present it for debate or debate the facts I have here.
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Re: Flaws of Life in a Tube

Postby Gavin » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:55 am

Debating with ignorant and closed minded creationists is futile. Your facts are nonsense to educated people.

Have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS5vid4GkEY. (Part 1 of 37, and counting)
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Postby Tomn » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:45 am

You want to prove your theory or what?

Apparently not. You want to laugh at creationists? Dont choke on that fly while you do. It hasnt fully evolved yet and it hasnt learned not to fly into open mouths.

I would appreciate if debate could return to this thread. Does ANYONE want to debate facts here?
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