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Why do you keep talking about species

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Why do you keep talking about species

Postby gamila » Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:48 am

Why do you keep talking about species when it has been shown by colin leslie dean that biologist donot know what a species is and for that matter what a phylum is


about15956.html

it looks like once a concept enters your head through un critical teaching/text books it become hard wired and cannot be removed
or
is it
you can only accept a view so long as it comes from a text book or professor
like today you want accept deans arguments
but
if tomorrow they become accepted wisdom in text books you will just once again go along with the standard view

i will give you some advice
an uncriticel acceptance of the text book standard view want make you the biologist genius most of you hope to be
it will just make you biological techicians
and for sure you will pass your exams by just being a parrot
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Re: Why do you keep talking about species

Postby AFJ » Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:09 am

What is a raccoon gamila? Could you define a raccoon, or distinguish one from another animal.

Species...A common definition is that of a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring, and separated from other such groups with which interbreeding does not (normally) happen.Wikipedia


Reproduction and mating are hard evidence that there are divisions of kinds and a testament of baramin (created kinds) "let them multiply after their kinds..." Gen 1.
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Postby gamila » Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:24 am

Species...A common definition is that of a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring, and separated from other such groups with which interbreeding does not (normally) happen.Wikipedia.


as colin leslie dean has pointed out from your own source wiki biologist dont know what a species is
it is called the "species problem" just google it and you will see it is an accepted fact

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species
However, the exact definition of the term "species" is still controversial, particularly in prokaryotes,[2] and this is called the species problem.[3


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_problem
Since the 1990s articles have appeared that make the case that species concepts, particularly those that specify how species should be identified, have not been very helpful in resolving the species problem

you just want change your mind even in the face of evidence
just think of all those PHd thesis and postdoctoral path breaking research
which use the term species
a whole lot of meaningless nonsense -as they dont even know what a species is
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Postby futurezoologist » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:38 pm

just google it and you will see it is an accepted fact


Well you deny textbooks and yet you rely on google for your "accepted facts"...*smirk*

and for sure you will pass your exams by just being a parrot


You are not the only one who dislikes teachers who promote parroting, but this has nothing to do with our man made classifications of organisms - which are not perfect, please if you have one please provide us with a better classification, but until then please stop slandering our current systems.
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Postby gamila » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:55 pm

but this has nothing to do with our man made classifications of organisms

with your classification of organism you cant even find the objects of your classification system
you have a thing called species but none of you know what it is
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Re: Why do you keep talking about species

Postby AFJ » Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:55 pm

gamila,
You didn't answer my question. Can you distinguish a raccoon from say a chimpanzee? If you can, the biological classification system has done well enough. Even if there is a variation within a type or kind of organism, "species" is going to give you a ballpark figure of what you are talking about so you can identify the organism with the name. Can't you even reasonably acknowledge this--even if you are correct technically?

I'm not a mathematician but what about repeating decimals as an illustration (.33333---> = 1/3). You can repeat the decimal a hundred times and it will still be rounded, so TECHNICALLY you can not define it. Does that mean we now can never divide 3 into 1?

What is the point and motivation of your statements about species and phylum? That we are floating directionless in space with no purpose or definition? If you believe in evolution, that is a conclusion you can arrive at. But you are created "in God's image," and therefore you have purpose. You have a moral compass inside, sometimes it fills with indignation and resentment when it sees injustice. It stings with guilt when we do wrong. Though all of them do not agree, and some are broken, they still are there, inside of you and me--unfulfilled--asking questions.
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Postby gamila » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:37 am

Can you distinguish a raccoon from say a chimpanzee


i can distinguish
Chihuahua and saint Bernard are they different species
to say so requires a definition of species but biologist cant tell us what a species is
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Postby canalon » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:25 pm

No.
The concept of species as usually defined date from Carolus Linnaeus, and predate evolution and Darwin. In fact the concept of species is much better adapted to a fixist/creationist world view than to the evolutionist one. The concept of reproduction still generally used do not really hold water as many examples have been given to you (i.e. lions and tiger can cross breed, but simply don't because they do not share the same habitat), and different breed of dogs that could potentially still produce offspring (with IVF) don't as you pointed out with St Bernard and Chihuahua. It is likely that many breeds of dog could end up creating different species just because of the artificially created and maintained reproductive isolation they are living in. Bacteriologist and virologist are well aware of that, and never liked the cross breeding definition of species (Hell, bacteria do not need partners to reproduce, so who cares about mating rules).
However groups living in more or less breeding isolation (for many reasons) are interesting, and if you look at the litterature about bacterial ecology, the concept of OTU (operational Taxonomic unit) is replacing more and more the concept of species.
But the concept of species besides all the problems is still convenient in many ways and that is why it is still there. Just like a designer would ask you to grab a chair to sit if you were visiting an office, but still knowing that all the limitations of the concept of "chair" in the real world. It is convenient, in spite of all the limitations. One would expect someone with degrees in philosophy to grab this kind of concepts.

A loser length post just to point out that your vision of biology is clearly outdated and limited to grade 12 textbook, and so your objections about biology show more of YOUR limts than that of what you are trying to criticize.
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any proof. (Ashley Montague)
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Postby gamila » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:35 pm

A loser length post just to point out that your vision of biology is clearly outdated and limited to grade 12 textbook, and so your objections about biology show more of YOUR limts than that of what you are trying to criticize.


fact is people on here use the term species
fact is you dont know what a species is
fact is people talk about species this species that speciation etc
fact is none of you know what a species is

fact is the term is used in bilogy
http://www.environment.gov.au/biodivers ... cords.html
Species Bank Records by Phylum

Click on one of the Phylum links to go to lists of species for that phylum or return to Species Bank home.

Kingdon: Animalia

Phylum: Annelida Worms
Class: Polychaeta Polychaetes

Phylum: Arthropoda Insects, Spiders, Millipedes, Crabs, Beetles
Class: Arachnida Spiders, Scorpions
Class: Insecta Ants, Bees
Class: Malacostraca Crabs, Lobsters, Shrimps, Woodlice
Class: Maxillopoda Barnacles

Phylum: Chordata Animals With A Backbone
Class: Aves Birds
Class: Actinopterygii Ray-finned Fishes
Class: Sarcopterygii Lungfishes
Class: Cephalaspidomorphi Jawless Fishes

Phylum: Cnidaria Corals and Sea Anemones
Class: Anthozoa
Class: Hydrozoa

Phylum: Echinodermata Sea Stars, Sea Urchins and relatives
Class: Asteroidea Sea Stars, Cushion Stars and relatives
Class: Echinoidea Sea Urchins, Heart Urchins and Sand Dollars
Class: Holothuroidea Sea Cucumbers

Phylum: Mollusca Molluscs
Class: Bivalvia Bivalves
Class: Cephalopoda Squids, Cuttlefishes, Octopus, Nautilus
Class: Gastropoda Snails, Slugs
Class: Polyplacophora Chitons

Kingdon: Plantae

Phylum: Magnoliophyta Flowering Plants
Order: Casuarinales Casuarinas and She-Oaks
Order: Fabales Wattles, Peas and Cassias
Order: Gentianales Gentians and relatives
Order: Malvales Kurrajong, Boabs, Hibiscus and relatives
Order: Myrtales Gum Trees, Paper Barks, Bottlebrushes, Myrtles and relatives
Order: Proteales Waratahs, Banksias, Grevilleas (Spider Flowers) and Macadamias
Order: Rosales Roses and relatives
Order: Santalales Sandalwood, Mistletoe and relatives
Order: Sapindales

so all of the above is meaningless nonsense
fact is biologist dont know what a phylum is or species
as pointed out by colin leslie dean

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylum
Although a phylum is often spoken of as if it were a hard and fast entity, no satisfactory definition of a phylum exists


and thus all this is meaningless nonsensde to

Animal phyla
Phylum Meaning Common Name Distinguishing characteristics Species described
Acanthocephala Thorny headed worms Thorny-headed worms Reversible spiny proboscis about 750
Acoelomorpha Without gut Acoels No mouth or alimentary canal
Annelida Little ring Segmented worms Multiple circular segments about 15,300 modern
Arthropoda Jointed foot Arthropods Chitin exoskeleton 1,134,000+
Brachiopoda Arm foot Lamp shells Lophophore and pedicle between 300 and 500 extant
Bryozoa Moss animals Moss animals, sea mats Lophophore, no pedicle, ciliated tentacles about 5,000 living species
Chaetognatha Longhair jaw Arrow worms Chitinous spines either side of head, fins about 100 modern species
Chordata Cord Chordates Hollow dorsal nervous chord, notochord, pharyngeal slits, endostyle, post-anal tail about 100,000+
Cnidaria Stinging nettle Coelenterates Nematocysts (stinging cells) about 11,000
Ctenophora Comb bearer Comb jellies Eight "comb rows" of fused cilia about 100 modern species
Cycliophora Wheel carrying Symbion Circular mouth surrounded by small cilia at least 3
Echinodermata Spiny skin Echinoderms Five-fold radial symmetry in living forms, mesodermal calcified spines about 7,000 extant and 13,000 extinct species
Echiura Spine tail Spoon worms Set of hooks at posterior end about 140
Entoprocta Inside anus Goblet worm Anus inside ring of cilia about 150
Gastrotricha Hair stomach Meiofauna Two terminal adhesive tubes about 690
Gnathostomulida Jaw orifice Jaw worms about 100
Hemichordata Half cord Acorn worms, pterobranchs Stomochord in collar, pharyngeal slits about 100 living species
Kinorhyncha Motion snout Mud dragons Eleven segments, each with a dorsal plate about 150
Loricifera Corset bearer Brush heads Umbrella-like scales at each end about 122
Micrognathozoa Tiny jaw animals — Accordion like extensible thorax 1
Mollusca Thin shell Mollusks / molluscs Muscular foot and mantle round shell 112,000[9]
Nematoda Thread like Round worms Round cross section, keratin cuticle 80 000 – 1 million
Nematomorpha Thread form Horsehair worms about 320
Nemertea A sea nymph Ribbon worms about 1200
Onychophora Claw bearer Velvet worms Legs tipped by chitinous claws about 200 modern
Orthonectida Straight swim Single layer of ciliated cells surrounding a mass of sex cells about 20
Phoronida Zeus's mistress Horseshoe worms U-shaped gut 20
Placozoa Plate animals 1
Platyhelminthes Flat worms Flat worms about 25,000[10]
Porifera Pore bearer Sponges Perforated interior wall over 5,000 modern
Priapulida Penis Priapulid worms Retractable proboscis surrounded by papillae 17
Rhombozoa Lozenge animal — Single axial cell surrounded by ciliated cells 75
Rotifera Wheel bearer Rotifers Anterior crown of cilia about 2000
Sipuncula Small tube Peanut worms Mouth surrounded by invertible tentacles 144–320
Tardigrada Slow step Water bears Four segmented body and head 1,000+
Xenoturbellida Strange flatworm — Ciliated deuterostome 2
TOTAL: 36 2,000,000-
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Re: Why do you keep talking about species

Postby kolean » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:19 pm

A geneticist can tell you the whole genome of an organism, and then put a "label" on it. Classifications will be down to SNPs, which could produce some million more "labels".

SNPs - single nucleotide polymorphisms
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Re: Why do you keep talking about species

Postby AFJ » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:31 am

kolean wrote
(i.e. lions and tiger can cross breed, but simply don't because they do not share the same habitat)....Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without
any proof. (Ashley Montague)


Yes they can cross breed, but they wouldn't, and its not just because they don't share the same habitat. They are instinctively territorial. Animals within the same family, genus or species school, flock, pack or stay together, and breed together except in rare cases.

Since you seem to think creationists don't have any proof or know anything at all, you ought to know. Creationists acknowledge Darwin's discoveries, and left species fixity behind--that was err--just like evolutionists have left many of their hypotheses behind--because of new research.
Have you ever listened to a creationist with a Ph. D. or read any of of their papers? Many of them have published papers in science journals-in non-Darwinian subjects. I have a friend who is a chemical engineer who is creationist. My pastor is a retired M.D. and is a creationist. Issac Newton and Edward Blythe (whom Darwin read) were creationists. There are more of us than you think.

Just one more thing and I'll stop venting (this is nothing personal-lol). PROOF is the wrong word in your quote there--because if science had proof--they would be CERTAIN. Science has EVIDENCE and scientists interpret the evidence. Not all of them interpret the evidence the same way--even those in the same camp.

Can you distinguish a raccoon from say a chimpanzee

i can distinguish
Chihuahua and saint Bernard are they different species
to say so requires a definition of species but biologist cant tell us what a species is


So what do we call them gamila! ITS?? And this is Dean's opinion only. I have no trouble with identifying a chihuahua by it's name--perhaps he just uses pronouns for every organism on earth.
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Postby gamila » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:52 am

So what do we call them gamila! ITS?

one thing for sure you cant call them is species-as biologists dont know what a species is
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