Bible vs Darwin

[alextemplet]

Oh yes, the Flying Spaghetti Monster shall save us all!

[gfrabizi]

I think a lot of the things in the Bible are taken as not being literal. I have not studied the Bible heavily, so I can't give a better answer.

It has always confused me how people can believe some things in the Bible as literal, and some as not.

One of my favorite things to talk about is my intro to Bio class at college, when talking about evolution and religion explaining that religion doesn't belong in science, but just because something isn't science doesn't mean it isn't true.

just so you know, the best means of studing and reading the Bible is both literaly and metaphorically...it doesnt make sense to just read it in one way when there are many parables that are not literal(Matthew13Behold the sower went forth to sow. 4 And whilst he soweth some fell by the way side...other some fell upon stony ground, where they had not much earth: and they sprung up immediately, because they had no deepness of earth. 6 And when the sun was up they were scorched)just as there are many events that are not metaphorical(Matthew6:5And when ye pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, that love to stand and pray in the synagogues and corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men...). In the parable above, the seed or sow is the Word, and may not grow amongst others without the right conditions. In harsh 'conditions' the Word may not grow. Where the second quote refers to hypocrisy and encourages people to stay away from such actions. There have also been many people whithin the Bible that actually existed as their lifes actually did take place. In all actuallity, the Bible should be read more than once, it involves philosophy and other written aspects that may become understood differently or more clearly as it is read again. Similar to "Book of Five Rings" which is a martilist book written in Japan.

True your statement in some sense, but there is a reason why. Science is very much the explanation of the natural world. that being what we sense, see and hear. super natural may not always be seen or heard or sensed, therefore it can not be studied or looked at in the same way. however science may deal with many things within religion, and the Bible. archeology is a form of science and there have been plenty of cities, objects, etc. that have been unduged to place truth to events within the Bible, such as King David for one(I actually just saw a show on 'bout it, so its still fresh in my head). For you see much of this natural world is how people sense God. They see Him through what miricales there are within the natural world, like birth. women don't have it perfect as many within the animal world, birth wieghs heavy when the kid has a big head and wide shoulders such as we do. I heard a similar quote as I took my biology class, though I rather prefer it over yours when it is better explained. "biology, science...is the explanation of the natural world around us. we will not talk religion because science does not go over the super natural, therefore we wont either." my biology teacher was a cool guy to, real nice.

[gfrabizi]

But that was ages ago. Scientific principles and ways of knowing have been established way back(like you said, enlightenment) and the church has long since stopped burning people. Referring to some of Alex's posts, you'll learn that the Church does not support creationist claims and instead is behind evolution. What does that mean? Is this the work of the church? Look carefully at the people who support creationism and would spend millions on building a museum. Some are the same rich people who selectively ignore the passages of the bible that deal with poverty. I think ultimately, people are to blame.

If you want to blame someone, blame the budget cuts to science programs after all the excitement from Sputnik died down. I heard from one of my profs that the main reason people don't understand evolution/science/creation is because for some 20 years, no one was required to take an intro evolutionary course and instead the focus was all on molecular biology(DNA) and such.

what you speak of is govt. involvement in its own arranged studies. science through out its history has been private investment. most investments along with discoveries have been private, instead of your acclaimed public.

also, please add some support to the Church burning people, when history may show it was the early Church that have been target with such horror.

I would like to show a tie between science and Church, many scientists and biologists to whom have made discoveries were not only of the Church, but carried positions in the Church higher than member...such as Brother.

[gfrabizi]

Looking at histories examples of religious people with good ideas, or those who were swayed to believe in a god due to the information they had, is not an accurate gauge of religions situation today. Today, science is eliminating the need to invoke god all over the place. Is it necessary for me to do the reasearch to show you the countless ideas that have been stripped from religions arena by a scientific explanation? As religion is reduced in it's influence in everyday life, believers construct straw men to tear down, and cast their net far and wide to dredge up weak or even false examples to support their argument. [Alextemplet, you are not being dishonest in your replies- there are unfortunately many who are willfuly dishonest. I just want you to be clear on that.] But do you really think that a few examples of smarter than average believers represent the whole? There are so many more Hovinds than Lemaîtres, that it is almost not worth mentioning Lemaître and the other notable faithful, because it highlights their extreme rarity.

When I have time I will do some digging into the stranger Catholic beliefs, and into the ways Catholic doctrine has conveniently changed gods perfect word to match scientific discoveries. Then we can see who's more illogical, the theist or the atheist.

I think its funny how you mintion Catholics as dependant and without means of independance. why is that so funny? well simply because the Catholic religion supports uniqueness and individuality. what you are so confused about just might be the rules that you may see to 'enforce' actions. what is missed is the actual act of a Catholic having the distinction in resolve towards perfection. In bettering themselves in many aspects of life. As a specialty towards Catholic meaning (what it means to actually be Catholic vs. just saying it) is the step away from flesh. By that I mean away from pride, wrath, lust, gluttony, etc. There actually seven words here, actions mind you that have historicly been proven to be the fall of man. In that sense you seem, as others are, confused in the determination towards keeping true these rules in keeping moral. to stay away from what is referred to as sin (and when I say you seem, its through reading your typed words). Now there are plenty others who may have same characteristics or resolve in many things, similar things/subjects who may not even be Catholic. I nod my head. Some may look at this as chains where it is to break the chains of flesh (selfishness, etc.) that is the focus. why? not only to become closer to God, but to better ourselves in everyday life. the worlds a simplier place with out such sins. more peaceful too.

Also, as many do...you think science is in some means a curse to religion. some extra ordinary explanation of what religion missed, even when majority religions that you so mintion are not practiced any more. Yea, Catholicism actually makes no crazy claim in explanation something just to find a reason...when many scientists (biologists) are/have been Catholic as science explains the (natural)world around us and in this search, this explanation, one may be joyful of the the world around them instead of just ignorant of it. So if you want to understand the world around you, sure...science...biology...all the way. but if you want to learn about yourself and the existance and extention of Love...science will never explain it. never.

[alextemplet]

The more this thread continues, the less I understand what we're arguing about . . .

[gfrabizi]

Tobby, why should I think twice? Give me some proof to support your statement that I should think twice. And if you can't, then me saying we should believe in little green men living in our brains is just as probable.

I am sorry, and this may offend people, but I don't get how people can have so much faith in a God, but yet you can't prove it. Wars are fought due to religion, and what do they have to prove for it?

I am naturalistic, meaning I use my surroundings to come up with logical ideas and conclusions ...sorry "God".

wars have been faught to proove a personal thought...to supply and demand a personal thought(which could be explained as pride, wrath, greed, etc.). Though people say religion has been the center of war, it is the irgnorance of both supporting and opposite religion that would start such hatred to begin a war. prejudice is a good example of the normal out come. where as many religions actualy support peace rather violence. Its this missunderstanding that cause such horrors.

And what you got to be sorry about? rather sarcastic there huh? any who, many do the same as you claim. Many actually experience God within nature and through out the natural world. why, many explanations of the super natural is through the natural in means of understanding.

[Darwin420]

GOOD observation skills there. Yes, indeed I am being sarcastic.

[alextemplet]

*grabs popcorn and gets ready to watch feathers fly*

[gfrabizi]

*grabs popcorn and gets ready to watch feathers fly*

why is there a pillow fight? really crazy when that happens...you know its bad when pillows get into fights.

[alextemplet]

I wasn't talking about a pillow fight. I was referring to a fight between pigeons.

[David George]

wars have been faught to proove a personal thought...to supply and demand a personal thought(which could be explained as pride, wrath, greed, etc.). Though people say religion has been the center of war, it is the irgnorance of both supporting and opposite religion that would start such hatred to begin a war. prejudice is a good example of the normal out come. where as many religions actualy support peace rather violence. Its this missunderstanding that cause such horrors.

And what you got to be sorry about? rather sarcastic there huh? any who, many do the same as you claim. Many actually experience God within nature and through out the natural world. why, many explanations of the super natural is through the natural in means of understanding.

Your right "wars have been fought to prove a personal thought"
In this case personal thought of whose religion is right or whose so called "God" is greater.And i don't see any diamond or gold mines in the region of Israel,palestine for which the crusades were fought.It was just some "Holy land" stuff.Add the end of the day you must accept that if their had been NO religion there wouldn't have been any such wars.

[alextemplet]

Add the end of the day you must accept that if their had been NO religion there wouldn't have been any such wars.

If there had been no religion, people would still have found reasons to fight each other, like race or ethnicity for example. To claim that religion causes war is just plain ignorant, like claiming that guns cause crime.