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Bible vs Darwin

Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.

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Postby alextemplet » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:00 pm

I almost feel as though we should have an entirely separate forum dedicated entirely to discussing the relationship between science andfaith. That way, we could be free to discuss the purely scientific aspects of evolutionary theory here without having to worry about every thread getting hijacked into a creationist debate.
Generally speaking, the more people talk about "being saved," the further away they actually are from true salvation.

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Postby enarees » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:47 am

alextemplet wrote:I almost feel as though we should have an entirely separate forum dedicated entirely to discussing the relationship between science andfaith. That way, we could be free to discuss the purely scientific aspects of evolutionary theory here without having to worry about every thread getting hijacked into a creationist debate.


For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: (1Co 1:22)

In conception of Christ have a lot of wisdom.
Christ is a biological phenomenon.
He is Second Adam.

The clan of Adam/Noah is a special clan.
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Re: Bible vs Darwin

Postby seahorse24 » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:59 pm

Good question and one i also struggled with for a while, i can tell u the conclusions i came to. Firstly im a scientist a molecular biochemist with a PhD, but i was also brought up in a Catholic school. The way i see it science and religion dont have to be a logger heads at all. The way i see it i help people understand the universe that was created. The bible has been rewritten and interpreted so many times, and it was written for people who were at a lower intellectual level. But the messages are still there and as science progresses as do the meanings behind the stories in the bible. So back to the main question. The bible does not say evolution is wrong. If you read genesis it basically describes evolution in 7 Days. What is 7 days to us may not be seven days to God. Maybe the 7 Day thing is not to be taken literal. I dont know its up to the individual wether they believe it literally word for word. Personaly if you read the bible wanting to understand with an open mind it give you the answers you need. Scientificaly we are made from elements found on earth (genesis claims we were made from dust) try telling a person from way back then what an element was! maybe thats why the word dust waas used. The important part which relys on faith is that genesis claims the breath of God was needed to bring life. Atheists who do not belive in a soul discount this. Personally after studying biology/chemistry/physics for over 10 years have come to the conclusion that something has brought order to chaos, and i believe that that is God. Without a soul we are just a bunch of molecules. A computer doesnt work without electricity. The more i do science the more it convinces me there is more to all this.

Macro-evolution is still to be proven, it is still a theory, micro-evolution is proven. scientists do not know if micro evolution can work on a macro level to explain how we got here.

Another important thing in the bible are these sayings 'i am the alpha and the omega', no beginning and no end, as humans we cant imagine this, how can something have no beginning, yet matter can neither be destroyed or created according to our own laws. Isnt this saying the same thing??? Also the bible says 'in the beginning there was the word' If you read behind this word could mean alot of things including sound and vibration. Some string theorists claim the universe is made out of vibrating strings.

If you go back to the big bang, a ball ready to explode into the universe. Where did this come from? did matter suddeny appear out of a huge nothingness and explode into a universe?

My point is to believe totally in atheism and think science explains everything requires faith in something you cant see and is ignorance. To believe soley in religion and discount science is ignorance. Both require some level of faith in the unknown. And atheism is in itself a belief. You can never prove God exists but you can never prove he doesnt. How can you discount science when it explains the world we live in that was created. The two need to be hand in hand.

I find that the more we learn the more it has already been written somewhere in the bible. Its a very clever book, and should be read spiritually not literally. Atheists read it literally and so poke fun. The scientists i work with seem to be split into two, atheists and believers. Personally i just have to look at the smile of a child or springtime to know there is more to all this then chemical interactions.

Maybe evolution was how we were developed and created. Maybe humans were just created and didnt evolve. The bible certainly doesnt disprove evolution, most scientist who say it does have never actually read it !!!

sorry for going off on a tangent
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Postby seahorse24 » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:17 pm

Sorry just read the threads properly. Im new to this. As far as i can see the question was does the bible support evolution! yes? so why has it turned into a religious debate with believers arguing with atheists? This is what annoys the hell out of me. Im a scientist and no matter what is proven in science, it does not discount religion. None of you should be slagging each others beliefs thats what causes so many wars. We were given free will to believe or not. Those of us who believe should not force faith on atheists. And atheists should not look down on people with beliefs thinking they are just trying to comfort themselves through life. Those of you who say read this argument on th enet read that. I have read most of them and each is biased according to their own beliefs. My own beliefs aside if you read philpsophical/science explanations all point to something bringing order to chaos.

I have beliefs but my reasoning is based on logic. Those of you claiming religion has no proof, i hate to burst your bubble but science doesnt have much of it either. I work in research and its not until you truly get to this level that you realise that actually as a human race we know sweet FA about anything. One person has said we should have a separate thread for these discussions. You could try but you will never get it because too many people like to impose their beliefs! If you want to be an atheist be an atheist if you want to have faith have it but never tell someone else their beliefs are wrong!
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Postby alextemplet » Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:40 am

Welcome to the party, Seahorse. It's refreshing to see a like-minded Catholic here every once and a while.
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Re: Bible vs Darwin

Postby wbla3335 » Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:08 am

There is one reality. There are a plethora of descriptions of this reality that depend on supernatural entities. Science is a method of describing this reality without depending on supernatural entities. If anyone can tell me why I should abandon reason when it comes to the big questions, I'd be happy to listen. Selective suspension of reason has its place, but it's not very productive in the quest for knowledge.
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Postby alextemplet » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:09 am

No one's asking you to abandon reason; in fact, reason would require us to be open to the possibility that there might be something more to the universe than we can explain. Reason is a marvelous tool but it has its limits, and it can only take us so far. Human reason is largely limited to what we can explain, and I don't think we'll ever be able to explain everything. Thus there will always be at least some room left for all sorts of possible hypotheses. To assume that science alone has all the answers is a downright unreasonable assumption, because there is absolutely no evidence nor any other reason to believe that this is true.
Generally speaking, the more people talk about "being saved," the further away they actually are from true salvation.

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Re: Bible vs Darwin

Postby enarees » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:43 am

wbla3335 wrote:There is one reality. There are a plethora of descriptions of this reality that depend on supernatural entities. Science is a method of describing this reality without depending on supernatural entities. If anyone can tell me why I should abandon reason when it comes to the big questions, I'd be happy to listen. Selective suspension of reason has its place, but it's not very productive in the quest for knowledge.


Adam was supernatural entity. He lactated and bore Eve on his nipple, like marsupial.
The autogenesis is necessary for the appearance of new species.

In fact Adam is collective noun for generations of autogenetic men, without use women.
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Re: Bible vs Darwin

Postby wbla3335 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:45 am

Hi alextemplet. No one is expecting science to supply proven answers to all questions, least of all scientists (scientific proof is indeed a rare thing in reductionist approaches). Particularly the ultimate questions, such as how the universe or life began. We may come up with good hypotheses that agree with observation as far as we can take it, but we cannot test these hypotheses. My reference to abandoning reason involves making the leap of faith required to believe in supernatural entities as a replacement for acknowledging and accepting our ignorance. My leap of faith involves believing that nature is all there is. I suspect we will all die without knowing the truth of the matter, but I have to make my bets based on probabilities of what is likely. My wife (a Christian) likes to tease me by saying I'm a fundamentalist. Fundamentalists, though, are people who know they are right. I don't and can't make that claim. I just love the process of trying to figure things out.
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Postby alextemplet » Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:32 pm

We seem to have common ground if we both love figuring things out. For me, the reason for religious belief is as simple as having seen more reasons to believe than I have seen reasons to disbelieve. During high school I had a rather fundamentalist faith in logic alone, until I realized that a person can use logic to justify or defend just about everything. Just look at politics; both sides claim their arguments to be entirely logical, yet they are in complete opposition to each other. Does logic help us here?

More than anything else, I would say that I am a skeptic. I have a habit (perhaps a bad habit) of constantly questioning everything, including my own ability to reason. I am also often amused by how even the most closed-minded people claim to be open-minded and honestly beleive themselves.

As a rather silly example, who's to say that the entire universe around us is nothing more than a giant illusion so well-designed that our own puny devices can never discover the truth? There would be no way to disprove such a wild hypothesis, and I could easily claim that all the so-called "evidence" for our own theories is all part of the illusion, all designed to further the deception that we so foolishly believe. Maybe it really is all about the Matrix! :)
Generally speaking, the more people talk about "being saved," the further away they actually are from true salvation.

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Re: Bible vs Darwin

Postby tom26 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:28 am

I belive what bible says.
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Re: Bible vs Darwin

Postby wbla3335 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:36 pm

Good for you, tom. But you must be curious about evolution, since you're here. Any questions?
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