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Just a simple question about Evolution

Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.

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Postby alextemplet » Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:50 pm

biotchr wrote:Due to our religious preferences in who/what we believe put us here, any origins hypothesis is overshadowed with bias and on that basis fails the scientific method as non-testable and non-falsifiable. This religious implication coupled with the historical context of origins as reaching beyond recorded, human history, makes evolutionary beliefs religious in content. Any supposed event that occurred before recorded, human history is unable to be observed or tested and is simply the subject of storytelling based on one's belief in a creator.


This would be true if a person is approaching the issue with a biased mind; start with an open mind, and you're much more likely to reach a truthful conclusion. As for something not having been observed when it happened, if that meant it couldn't be investigated, then the entire criminal justice system is a giant fraud.

biotchr wrote:Thank you for you frankness. Science 101 says that science doesnt study God nor His ways in "creating life". So your proposition that God "evolved" us and everything around us pointedly fails your model as being science.


I'm glad you appreciate my thoughts, but I never claimed my response was scientific. I'm simply stating what I, personally, believe based on my acceptance of both science and religion. I believe that one answers the how and the other answers the why.

biotchr wrote:Evolution is religious and thank you for being so truthful.

Now why are we teaching YOUR religion to our kids again?


Pardon me? Last time I checked, I'm not a teacher, and my religion (Roman Catholicism) is only a required course in Catholic schools, as it should be. Do you want Catholic schools to stop teaching Catholicism?

biotchr wrote:Just because religious people happen to fall for evolution doesnt make the theory valid. Science doesnt count votes. The validity of scientific theory has nothing to do with who or how many agree with the conclusions offered up by the particular scientific theory, it has to do with the correctness of the content of the theory (or whether it can even be studied using science).


Just because religious people happen to fall for creationism doesn't make it valid. Obviously theologians don't prove evolution, but they do show how religious and scientific ideas can peacefully co-exist. Science alone proves evolution.
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Postby biotchr » Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:59 pm

Regarding Christian Evolutionists:


That title is an oxymoron by definition.

By the way I am not saying that an evolutionist cannot be a Christian but if they are, they have erred.
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Postby biotchr » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:09 pm

alextemplet wrote:
biotchr wrote:Due to our religious preferences in who/what we believe put us here, any origins hypothesis is overshadowed with bias and on that basis fails the scientific method as non-testable and non-falsifiable. This religious implication coupled with the historical context of origins as reaching beyond recorded, human history, makes evolutionary beliefs religious in content. Any supposed event that occurred before recorded, human history is unable to be observed or tested and is simply the subject of storytelling based on one's belief in a creator.


ALEX:
This would be true if a person is approaching the issue with a biased mind; start with an open mind, and you're much more likely to reach a truthful conclusion. As for something not having been observed when it happened, if that meant it couldn't be investigated, then the entire criminal justice system is a giant fraud.


I have never met a human that was not biased about who/what or lack thereof put them here.

The crimial justice system is not a fraud, it just doesn't work by pure science. Forensics being a soft science does not mean it is a "giant fraud", it just means that it is not as exact as chemistry, physics or biology. It is a soft science.

biotchr wrote:Thank you for you frankness. Science 101 says that science doesnt study God nor His ways in "creating life". So your proposition that God "evolved" us and everything around us pointedly fails your model as being science.


ALEX:
I'm glad you appreciate my thoughts, but I never claimed my response was scientific. I'm simply stating what I, personally, believe based on my acceptance of both science and religion. I believe that one answers the how and the other answers the why.


What you did claim is that God evolved us and everything around us. That fails evolution from being scientific at all.

It would be the same as me claiming that God created us and everything around us. That fails creation from being scientific at all.

biotchr wrote:Evolution is religious and thank you for being so truthful.

Now why are we teaching YOUR religion to our kids again?


ALEX:
Pardon me? Last time I checked, I'm not a teacher, and my religion (Roman Catholicism) is only a required course in Catholic schools, as it should be. Do you want Catholic schools to stop teaching Catholicism?


No, I want public schools to disclose the religiosity of the topic I am forced to teach kids.

By the way I am not advocating the removal of the theory, I just think we should be more truthful about its real religious roots.
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Postby alextemplet » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:38 pm

biotchr wrote:I have never met a human that was not biased about who/what or lack thereof put them here.


Then welcome to Mecca. I think most of the people here will side with me in stating that our only bias is towards truth, in that if you can show anything I have said to be untruthful, I'll concede. I'm always open to learning more, but I do require you to at least show me some complelling reason that what you say is true. I won't accept something simply because you say it.

biotchr wrote:The crimial justice system is not a fraud, it just doesn't work by pure science. Forensics being a soft science does not mean it is a "giant fraud", it just means that it is not as exact as chemistry, physics or biology. It is a soft science.


Please explain what you mean by soft science.

biotchr wrote:What you did claim is that God evolved us and everything around us. That fails evolution from being scientific at all.

It would be the same as me claiming that God created us and everything around us. That fails creation from being scientific at all.


I did claim exactly that, and thank you for being truthful about your claims. I never claimed that my belief that God evolved us is scientific. Evolution itself is scientific, but the belief that God had a role in it is a bit more religious. It's the same as accepting photosynthesis as a scientific process, while believing that it was designed/evolved by God is a religious belief.

biotchr wrote:No, I want public schools to disclose the religiosity of the topic I am forced to teach kids.

By the way I am not advocating the removal of the theory, I just think we should be more truthful about its real religious roots.


That's fine, there's nothing wrong with honesty, but I'm confused as to how public schools are forcing you to teach a religious topic to children. You mentioned my religion; are you being forced to teach Catholicism?
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Postby sachin » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:55 pm

More over I can see here; some People Researching on :(

Evolution of Religions Rather than organic Evolution.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby biotchr » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:20 pm

alextemplet wrote:
biotchr wrote:I have never met a human that was not biased about who/what or lack thereof put them here.


ALEX:
Then welcome to Mecca. I think most of the people here will side with me in stating that our only bias is towards truth, in that if you can show anything I have said to be untruthful, I'll concede. I'm always open to learning more, but I do require you to at least show me some complelling reason that what you say is true. I won't accept something simply because you say it.


If you believe that people are not biased about where they believe they came from, especially in reference to who/what they believe put them here, then what you are stating is not true. Unless you can show me one human on earth that is not biased about the question "who/what put you here".

Now the logical extention and ramification of this is that HOW we got here should logically correlate with WHO/WHAT we believe put us here.

biotchr wrote:The crimial justice system is not a fraud, it just doesn't work by pure science. Forensics being a soft science does not mean it is a "giant fraud", it just means that it is not as exact as chemistry, physics or biology. It is a soft science.


ALEX:
Please explain what you mean by soft science.


A soft science is a scientific field usually involving human behavior or institutions that investigates phenomena scientifically to some extent but measurable results are sometimes difficult to collect or analyze.

Please be advised that this is not an official definition. Its off the top of my head.

Also in comparison, hard sciences such as chemistry, physics, and biology involve rigorous testing following strict guidelines within scientific methods. Soft science like psychology and sociology do not require such prerequisites.

biotchr wrote:What you did claim is that God evolved us and everything around us. That fails evolution from being scientific at all.

It would be the same as me claiming that God created us and everything around us. That fails creation from being scientific at all.


ALEX:
I did claim exactly that, and thank you for being truthful about your claims. I never claimed that my belief that God evolved us is scientific. Evolution itself is scientific, but the belief that God had a role in it is a bit more religious. It's the same as accepting photosynthesis as a scientific process, while believing that it was designed/evolved by God is a religious belief.


Photosynthesis and cellular respiration require absolutely no religious ties to any creator. We readily observe such processes using proper microscopy.

I have never met anyone willing to fight over whether God, Zeus, Junos, or any other god is involved in photosynthsis or cellular respiration. I have never met a theist that was not willing to sit down and discuss the Calvin Cycle of photosynthesis with an atheist.

I have no idea how a theist and an atheist could possibly agree on aspects related to our origins.

biotchr wrote:No, I want public schools to disclose the religiosity of the topic I am forced to teach kids.

By the way I am not advocating the removal of the theory, I just think we should be more truthful about its real religious roots.


ALEX:
That's fine, there's nothing wrong with honesty, but I'm confused as to how public schools are forcing you to teach a religious topic to children. You mentioned my religion; are you being forced to teach Catholicism?

By law I must teach evolution without any alternative STORY. Evolution is a story and just like any other origins story, it is unable to be observed or repeated other than in the words of your stories. Granted your stories are a little bit more in depth and complicated in scope, but it doesnt matter how much math or science you use, you are still enaging in storytelling. More importantly, since your storytelling involves opinions about the existence and role of a creator it makes the investigation just as religious as any other story.
Last edited by biotchr on Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Linn » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:27 pm

I think it is like a religion. :wink:

Are the kids given a chance to think for themselves about it?
No the current popular opinion of the interpretation of the observation is what is taught. Not as theory though, but stated as fact. I have my kids highschool text books that do so. statements such as "when things evolved" instead of : "it is believed that things evolved".
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Postby biotchr » Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:04 pm

I think it is like a religion. :wink:

Are the kids given a chance to think for themselves about it?


Absolutely not. In fact, in many cases, the atheists that teach in our schools, especially those in our colleges, disrespect creationists.

No the current popular opinion of the interpretation of the observation is what is taught. Not as theory though, but stated as fact.


Remember that a scientific theory denotes a much more deeper meaning than "I have a theory as to why my car will not start". Scientific theory is factual but with the stipulation that it is only factual as far as we know with the understanding that our level of knowledge may change.

I have my kids highschool text books that do so. statements such as "when things evolved" instead of : "it is believed that things evolved".


Yes, in biology books common descent is factual. I believe this to be false in the context of historical events, namely that men evolved from cells over billions of years of ancestory. That STORY is based on a religious belief in a stupidnatural god that somehow works within the parameters of science. Furthmore, I do not believe the events within the proposed model of common descent to be observable or repeatable, just the topic of stories involving a stupidnatural god that would do such a thing.
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Postby biotchr » Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:09 pm

sachin@biog wrote:More over I can see here; some People Researching on :(

Evolution of Religions Rather than organic Evolution.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


I would challenge you to elaborate as to provide some meaning in regards to your comment. Right now, it seems quite irrelevant.
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Postby AstusAleator » Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:14 pm

Haven't we had this discussion before biotchr? In fact, I can't remember you ever talking/debating about anything else on this forum. Not to discredit your argument, but your assertions that evolution is a religion has been debated and discussed in quite some depth in other threads. Don't you think you could spend your (and our) time more constructively by simply pointing us back to that thread, and picking that discussion up where it left off, considering all the points that were made in it?
I know that I personally discussed the matter at length with you, and really don't feel like repeating myself.

I've taken the time to get some links to some of your previous discussions. Anyone that wants to get caught up to speed can read them.

viewtopic.php?t=6698
viewtopic.php?t=3856
(On that second link, I'll refer you specifically to page 9)
viewtopic.php?t=3285
(In this link, you can skip to page 18 )

Anyone that follows these links can see that these topics have been discussed EXTENSIVELY with little resolution. If you go to that third link and look at the 3rd post from the top on page 18 (it might vary depending on your forum settings) I think I summed up the discussion quite well in that post.

**Linn this applies to you too :wink:
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Postby Linn » Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:55 am

Remember that a scientific theory denotes a much more deeper meaning than "I have a theory as to why my car will not start". Scientific theory is factual but with the stipulation that it is only factual as far as we know with the understanding that our level of knowledge may change


I know these guys already brought that to my attention previously :)

I still have problems with understnding this only when it comes to the evolution theory. I understnd that In science, a fact means an observation that has been confirmed to the extent that it is taken to be true.
It is confirmed becuse it is strongly supported by evidence.


But as to the meaning of life, if I was an evolutionist and did not believe in God, I think there is no meaning beyond just enjoying the short time we have here and procreation, which really is not very meaningful. :?
And thus what mith said is true To pass on genetic traits. Also as other said try to do some good. But then at death all you did means nothing to you since you can no longer be here to think about such questions as this any longer. :wink:
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Postby mith » Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:04 am

Sometimes the goal is to simply walk the path
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
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