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Digestive System Evolution

Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.

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Postby JackBean » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:18 pm

obviously it was the membrane. How could you have lysosomes w/o membrane?

So, tell us, how does your creator look like? Did he create us in his own image?
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Re: Digestive System Evolution

Postby scottie » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:47 pm

Cynicism does not become you nor does it advance you argument, so it is best left alone.

However
obviously it was the membrane. How could you have lysosomes w/o membrane?


Lysosomes and membranes are two entirely different macro molecules.
My question was which evolved first.
If it was "obviously the membrane" then what was the selective force that required this novelty?
Also how did the lysosome get into the membrane.
What natural selective force required this novelty?
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Postby JackBean » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:07 pm

I won't respond until you respond to my questions
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Re: Digestive System Evolution

Postby scottie » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:21 pm

Ok throw your toys out of the pram then :)
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Re: Digestive System Evolution

Postby scottie » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:49 pm

I didn't mean to poke fun. I apologise.
I will try and answer your questions

So, tell us, how does your creator look like? Did he create us in his own image?

How does your creator look like?

A creationist may answer this way.
Three persons in one. Some images depict a three headed benign personage.
A member of Islam will have no image.
A member of Judaism will also have no image.
A member of the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster will probably depict a --- well -- a monster made of spaghetti.

Did he create us in his own image?
Since this is a statement from the bible then a bible student will answer probably this way.
The image referred to is a personality image that needs to be cultivated through accurate knowledge of bible teachings.

Hope this helps.
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Postby JackBean » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:19 pm

No. You're saying, that the life on Earth was created by designer. How does this one look like? Did this particular creator create us in his own image?
Stop avoiding answers and say us what you know.
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Postby Tomn » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:47 pm

JackBean:
If you have a proposed hypothesis for how the digestive system developed, it would please me to know where this hypothesis or explanation is. What evidence is it based on? If there is evidence and a hypothesis, please give me the name of that hypothesis and the coordinating evidence.

"But it's still better than believe in God for which you have no proof at all"
There are several evidences for God, especially things which man cannot explain without a all powerful creator. I will begin with the digestive system, the brain, the immune system, the myriad of types of cells in the body, etc. etc. All of them are complex and, for just one system, evolution cannot provide the explanation for how it "developed". How did a simple eukaryote cell turn into a brain cell? How did the brain form? Evolution explains this no where in any hypothesis, especially if you take away the phrase which is simply a lack of an explanation: "It evolved."

Secondly, on evidence for God. There are multiple well known accounts of what you might call "unexplained phenomena". A sailor was in the navy and aboard a ship. The ship had a catholic chaplain. The sailor ridiculed the chaplain, saying (not exact quote) "If there is a God, then He can make me stop smoking!" Now this man had been smoking for some time, was young, had no previous trouble with smoking, and was used to being on a ship. He ritually smoked after lunch. So the next day, he went out on the deck, lit up, and took a deep breadth. He said to himself with satisfaction "There is no God." At that moment, he vomited over the side. He thought "oh, just a fluke of some sort". So the next day, he came upon the deck after lunch, and repeated the same phrase to himself, thinking that there is no God. And he vomited over the side of the ship. And the third day, the same happened again for the 3rd time in a row. He went back to the chaplain and gave his life to Christ. What is evolution's explanation for this? Obviously, this is not the result of a mutation.

I have seen 3 accounts of God myself: phenomena which is unexplained except for God's awesome heeling power. One woman I know, Bridget. She had a problem in her female parts, where she could not have a baby. There is a document showing a doctors report of this. She had been this way for some time. One day, while we were all in service, we had a special guest named Jay Hoskins. He laid hands on her, using the mighty name of Jesus, and she felt a warmth come over her in her female area. She went back to the doctor. The condition that had ailed her was gone. Bridget asked the doctor how this happened. He could not explain it. She went back again for another check up. The results stayed the same. She was heeled by the mighty power of God, which neither medical nor evolution has an explanation for.

The next 2 accounts are the same kind of healing, but they are physical healings which you can watch as they happen. Jay Hoskins, in the same night as Jesus healed Bridget, called out for anyone who had one leg shorter than the other. A young man came up. So that we could see the shorter leg, he sat on the stage and extended and straightened his legs. The left leg was about 4 inches shorter than the other. Jay said "In the name of Jesus Christ be healed." And in that moment, while I was watching, I watched the left leg grow right before my eyes, at about 2 or 3 feet away. And in about 6 seconds, both legs were the same length.

Another time with the same man, Jay Hoskins, called again for the same physical deformality. And a old woman stood up. He placed a single chair in the center aisle where everyone could see. He had her sit in the chair and extend her legs. There was a 3 inch difference this time. I was about 15 or 20 feet away, but a camera displayed it on the big screen. He again said "In the name of Jesus Christ be healed." And again, the leg grew before my eyes.

There was a man that came named John Smithwick. He came to our church and simply prayed over us all, that in the name of Jesus Christ, be healed. There was a girl who had gone to the dentist and was experiencing what was wither pain or numbness as a result of the anesthesia. The pain left her that night. There was someone who was a man who was experiencing pain as a result of a disk in his spine being out of place in some way. He was experiencing difficulties with going up stairs. That night, he had no pain and he walked up the stage stairs without any issues. He has continued in the healing Jesus gave him. There was a man in a wheel chair. He used to be able to walk with a cane. Now he could not and was sitting in a wheelchair. That night, we walked without a cane and received his heeling. Also, that same night, there were tens of people who came with pain, and left without it.

Also, John Smithwick goes around the world. People who had a myriad of medical problems are now free from them by the mighty name of Jesus. There are about 1000 documented healings for the summer.

There is a college for Rhema Bible Training Center. Since its founding, people have been coming in to become healed by Jesus Christ. People come in with many different diseases. Cancer is the most famous one. People come in with cancer, and with no kemo or medical treatment, they leave without it.

But God works by faith, by belief. The bible sais "By his (Jesus') stripes, we were healed." It sais "All things are possible to them that believe." The opposite is also true: if you dont believe, its not possible. Jesus will not overcome you and do something you do not want him to do. A woman had cancer, but did not want to get healed. The people from Rhema came and prayed, and nothing was happening. Then they asked her she believed in Christ, and if she knew Jesus was her healer. She knew, but she responded (not exact) "Im ready to go to heaven." They understood at that point. Then they prayed to God and told Him of the situation, which being the God He is, He already knew what was going on. They prayed her over into Heaven, and in the next few minutes, she passed on without a sign. She passed on without a seizure or twitches or anything that shows that she was dying. Just simply passed. She could not be healed by God's power because she did not want to be healed. She did not want to believe for that healing.

Also, you may look to the complexity of ALL life, especially the brain, and the complex systems, and the cycles that maintain life on earth, and the atom structure. I assume you know that carbon is the basis of all life. Everything that is alive has carbon. Carbon has 6 protons. Protons, in the natural world, do not bind to each other. They repel each other. Also, the speed needed for nuclear fusion do not occur naturally, by itself, in the natural world. Yet protons are held together in an atom by nuclear forces, forces that cause protons to stick together when they get extremely close together. Yet any farther apart, and they split. How did carbon form? How is it even possible for carbon to form? The answer is that it is not possible for carbon, iron, mercury, aluminum, fluorine, chlorine, magnesium, calcium, anything with an atomic number of 2 or above, to form. Life and the very world as we know it cannot exist by evolution and the big bang.

JackBean & scottie: Ask yourself this: where are you going when you die? There is indeed an afterlife. There is a heaven and a hell, and we must all go to either one, and we must all face the judgement seat of God. There was a survey given to people who had been clinically dead and had arisen from death. 4000 people said that they had either seen heaven, hell, or both as described in the Bible. One case in particular was a pastor in Africa. He was in a car accident and dies, right then and there. He was dead for 4 hours. During that time, his church was praying over his body that he should come back to life. He arose after 4 hours. He told the people what he saw when he came back to life. He saw heaven, where it was so pleasant. The flowers and everything there praised God. the air was filled with a peaceful tune. Then the angel that was guiding him around took him to hell. There was a man in hell who was a cannibal. The Bible sais that "whatever a man soeth (sows), so shall he reap." The cannibal was eating his own flesh. and in between bites, his flesh renewed itself so that he could eat into eternity.

Hell is a scary place, but you can escape only through Jesus. The Bible sais "No man come unto the Father (God) expect by the son", who is Jesus Christ. The bible sais "He who calls on his name (Jesus) shall be saved." Call on him.
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Postby Tomn » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:59 pm

scottie: Why does it have to be on or the other?
God want our heart. He wants our devotion, our time, and the dedication, to Him, of our lives and our moral conduct. But God DOESNT WANT TO TAKE THIS FROM ANY MAN! God is all powerful. He holds the universe in His hands, and the Earth id His footstool. If He wanted to, he could just do what he wanted and be draconian and tyrannical. But that is not in His nature. God wants to show you His glory and His power, and his love, peace, joy, mercy, and compassion.

It has to be one way or the other between evolution and God because evolution is something that tries to falsely explain how the world came to be. The universe and everything we say is the product of God's creation, and when we try to diminish His power and His power and His incredibly complex creation by saying that it arrived by itself from nothing and that it is the result of a random, impossible process. No. God created this universe and everything we see (there are artificial products, which were created from God's supply of basic materials, which He created).

Allow me to tell you about the origins of evolution. A man named Charles Darwin was a Christian. He believed in God. He knew he created the universe. He knew the good things of God. But his children developed incredibly serious illnesses: tuberculous and some others that I dont remember the exact ones. His wife got a serious disease. His children and wife dies eventually. Charles Darwin, being mad at God and wanting to get back at God, made the theory of evolution. Think: if you're a Christian scientist, and your children and wife get serious illnesses and die, and God is supposed to be good, and they die. How would you feel toward God? How could you get back at Him?
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Postby Tomn » Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:42 pm

JackBean wrote:So, tell us, how does your creator look like? Did he create us in his own image?


Well, for one, God is a trinity of three parts: God the Father, Jesus the Son, and The Holy Spirit. We men have 3 parts: spirit, mind/soul, and body. The spirit is where you are housed when you leave this earth. The spirit is shown to be existent by the many people who died and were still able to see in their after life. They were not seeing with their natural eyes. They saw with the eyes of their spirit as they walked the afterlife.

The mind/soul is not the physical mind, but it is your free will and emotions.

But essentially, God is in three parts joined in one, and we are three parts joined in one.
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Postby JackBean » Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:57 pm

Sorry, but I asked scottie for the creator, since be believes there is a creator, but doesn't want to tell us more about him.
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Postby Tomn » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:39 pm

JackBean:
I believe there is a creator. I am a christian, and regardless of whether it came from me or him, it is a valid answer on the same God.

Also, take into consideration the complexity of our body. The several systems that have, for each, a different type of cell. The brain. The digestive system and the question of lysosome and the enzymes within, as well as the conundrum of how stomach acid ended up in the stomach, and how the t-cell came to be, and how each type of cell arrived on this earth. Then take into account how the body is organized in such a way, that all systems are stacked together in a way that allows them all to function. Now take into account the complexity of all life, the simplest single-celled organisms (which are complex, but are yet the simplest) and up to multicellular organism, and the fact that they are even more complex that unicellular. Then take into the account the earth's position and its life support systems, where if only one were out of place, all or most of life would cease to exist.

This cannot have happened simply by chance. The big bang claims that something, which is complex in design, cam make itself out of nothing. The theory of evolution sais that life began in the chemical slosh, where chemicals arranged themselves randomly so that the plasma membrane was on the outside, and the organelles were on the inside, and that the organelles would function, and that the cell as a a whole would be alive. Evolution shoots itself in foot when it sais "life comes from life", and yet a prokaryote, which is alive, can develop from a randomly accomplished organization of chemicals, which are not alive. It is so close to impossible, that mass amounts of phosphorus, adenine, guanine, cytosine, and thymine would amass together and somehow form DNA, or other chemicals to form a simple plasma membrane. Much less the organelles which are more complex in chemical structure and would develop after the plasma membrane, and would somehow end up inside the plasma membrane. How did organelles get inside the plasma membrane?

The answer to this is simply this: its impossible for life to come from things that are not alive, and it is impossible for life to randomly form on its own and have such perfect design. For life to be so complex and have the life support to accompany it, there has to be a creator, a God, an intelligent designer.
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Re: Digestive System Evolution

Postby scottie » Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:00 pm

Tomm

scottie: Why does it have to be on or the other?


Because evolutionary theory claims to be science. This is a science forum.
Your religion is your business, but it cannot be taught as science.

There are many religions around and yours is just one of the many.
With respect, the digestive system which this thread is about has nothing to do with your religion
Recall the question that started this thread.
I need to know how was the digestive system evolution since the beginning I mean since that beings with just one cell. (sorry for the bad english)


If you wish to start another thread on your religion then by all means please do so.
I personally will choose not to post to that thread.

You and Jackbean seem to wish to discuss your respective religions.
That is up to you two.
He has found a comforting bolt hole to evade the science he is being examined on and you appear to want to persuade me to give my heart to your mysterious Trinity.

I can however answer one question you asked me because it can be answered by science.

JackBean & scottie: Ask yourself this: where are you going when you die?


When I die I go to the grave. The same place as anyone else including, sadly my dead dog. My body will decompose and it will return to all the constituent elemental parts. In other words I will cease to exist.
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