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Digestive System Evolution

Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.

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Postby Tomn » Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:28 pm

scottie:
You have a soul. Both my body and yours is naught but shadows and dust. But we have a soul. Where will your soul end up? There is a afterlife.

Consider the survey taken of people who died and came back. 4000 of them said they say heaven, hell, or both, as described in the Bible. Their bodies dead and inactive. They are not dreaming. They are not seeing things. Something else on the inside of them saw heaven/hell/both. And that is their soul. You can argue what you will, but you have a soul just as those who died and came back, and your soul is going somewhere:either heaven or hell. Choose this day who, you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Call on him.
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Re:

Postby aptitude » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:23 am

Tomn wrote:Consider the survey taken of people who died and came back.


Huh?
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Re: Digestive System Evolution

Postby aptitude » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:50 am

Scottie, whether the membrane or the lysosome evolved first is not a difficult question to answer. Lysosomes are just membrane-enclosed vescicles with special degradative enzymes that bud off from the Golgi apparatus. The only thing that evolved here is the enzymes within the lysosomes.

This is NOT a chicken-or-egg scenario.
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Re: Digestive System Evolution

Postby scottie » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:28 am

Scottie, whether the membrane or the lysosome evolved first is not a difficult question to answer. Lysosomes are just membrane-enclosed vescicles with special degradative enzymes that bud off from the Golgi apparatus. The only thing that evolved here is the enzymes within the lysosomes.

This is NOT a chicken-or-egg scenario.


Lysosomes can contain more than three dozen enzymes for degrading the proteins, nucleic acids, etc.

Enzymes are proteins. Ribosomes which in themselves are proteins, make the enzymes, which are also proteins. The enzymes didn’t evolve they are made by the ribosome. A conundrum is it not?

The membrane that encloses these proteins is a completely different molecule, which as far as I am aware also contains embedded proteins.!!

So did the membrane evolve first to protect the cell from these enzmmes that would destroy it, or did the enzymes evolve first to digest the cells waste products.

Now jackbean states that the membrane “obviously” evolved first.

So my simple question was
What is the force that would have selected for a situation (ie presence of enzymes) that had not yet come into existence?
That is how evolution is supposed to work is it not?

It certainly could not be natural selection because natural selection cannot select for something that does not exist.
Surely this is self evident.

Now you appear to be saying that the Golgi apparatus evolved first.
But yours is yet another example of this self same conundrum.

What need is there for the Golgi apparatus to package and transport products to the various cellular locations if those systems didn’t already exist.

Can you not see why the cell as a complete unit is the basic form of life.
Nothing is alive unless the cell exists. All these individual systems within the cell are in themselves inert.
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Re: Digestive System Evolution

Postby JackBean » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:43 am

First of all, ribosomes are mainly nucleic acid. Especially the catalytic center is nucleic acid, the proteins are just some package.

You wrote
The enzymes didn’t evolve they are made by the ribosome.

That's like saying - we didn't evolve, we are made by sex.

I assume the membrane was first because the cell is enveloped by membrane even in prokaryotes, which lack Golgi or lysosomes.
http://www.biolib.cz/en/main/

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Re: Digestive System Evolution

Postby scottie » Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:29 pm

First
I assume the membrane was first because the cell is enveloped by membrane even in prokaryotes, which lack Golgi or lysosomes.


It was pretty "obvious" before but now you only assume.
Well at least you are rowing back somewhat.

Second
Prokaryotes contain ribosomes that make proteins. Or didn't you know that?

So you are now arguing that the membrane appeared before the cell are you?
But the membrane contains proteins that are made by the cell.

How does that work then.

You are digging an even bigger hole for yourself

My advice is stop digging.
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Postby JackBean » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:57 pm

man, you're so stupid, you cannot even imagine, that something is able to evolve from simple (only ribosyme, only lipid bilayer) into something complicated (ribosome, nowaday membrane).

There is nothing to discuss with you.


I'm able to assume that because it's quite obvious.
I'm not arguing, that proteins are not made by ribosomes, but that this is not argument against evolution :-/ Are you really that stupid or just trying to make me look stupid, because you have no better arguments?
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Postby Tomn » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:09 pm

JackBean:
Your insults have no place in the scientific discussion. I am with scottie in this: we are simply questioning the very far-stretched (to the point of impossibility) conjecture which sais that enzymes could have evolved with the membrane.

We are questioning whether the membrane could have even formed considering that it contains proteins made by the cell.

And we are questioning whether the golgi apparatus would have involved in the time frame suggested by evolution. This is considering that when it evolved, there would have been no use for it as there were no cellular locations for it to transport things to.

We have gone in this circle of question and answer, and you have not provided a viable, possible answer that is not far stretched or close to impossible. Or even if it is possible, it is self contradictory in the sequence of development and the fact that the enzymes would not be able to get inside the membrane, or the membrane within the cell wall.

I would assume scottie is not trying to make you look stupid, because neither am I. We are simply pointing out that evolution is quite impossible because it cannot provide a viable means of cell development.

If evolution cannot provide a sufficient, viable answer (which evolution cannot provide an answer), then the simple answer to this is that evolution is impossible. If the cell cannot develop under evolution, how can life develop? The answer is that it cannot develop under evolution.
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Postby Tomn » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:56 pm

The thing about evolution is that for it to be possible, all of these things must line up in a proper orientation and must be viable and somewhat reasonable and possible. The point is, that you may be able to argue one point, but the other points which you say are possible do not line up and are simply impossible and very far stretched.

When multiple events, far stretched in possibility, need to coordinate in their order and time of occurrence, then it makes the overall goal of all of these events lining up impossible.
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Postby aptitude » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:46 am

Wow, you creationist guys really need to crack open a biology texbook.
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Re: Digestive System Evolution

Postby scottie » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:28 am

Jackbean

I take that as a NO.
You cannot tell me what selective force was operating on the membrane for it to have evolved.
However I have to give you credit for having such a fertile imagination

And you are quite right of course. I am too stupid to imagine. :)
I have leave that to the believers, you are much better at it than me.

So with your kind permission I will stick with science
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Re:

Postby JackBean » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:23 pm

Tomn wrote:The thing about evolution is that for it to be possible, all of these things must line up in a proper orientation and must be viable and somewhat reasonable and possible. The point is, that you may be able to argue one point, but the other points which you say are possible do not line up and are simply impossible and very far stretched.

When multiple events, far stretched in possibility, need to coordinate in their order and time of occurrence, then it makes the overall goal of all of these events lining up impossible.


That's wrong, actually the evolution is working by fixing previous mistakes. An outstanding example is the eye of mammals, where the light must pass through the nerves before it reaches retina. That's not much intelligent design ;)

But you know what. I understand, why so many engineers are for ID, because only engineer can design the waste disposal system so close to the fun park :-D
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