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Free Energy of the Universe

Debate and discussion of any biological questions not pertaining to a particular topic.

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Free Energy of the Universe

Postby cytochromeP » Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:54 am

I have a few questions pertaining to the "change in free energy of the universe since big bang".
Assuming that the Big Bang model is true.....
When the universe was just formed it must have started out with some 'x' amount of free energy. Since the nature of things is to favor the decrease in free energy, does this 'x' amount go on decresing as our universe ages?
Will there be point in the future of our universe when this 'x' amount of free energy pool depletes? Can we estimate how much long until then?

Please help me out on this one.
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Postby Chris4 » Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:13 am

Most people believe that the universe may end when it collapes back on itself. Its expanding but the energy with which the galaxys are moving away from each other will decrease until they are pulled back together by gravity. I think this will happen before all the energy is lost. Isnt a lot of energy just converted from form to another? I know in most cases some energy is lost as heat or light, but i think it will last for a very long time.
Im sure someone has more to say on this or correct me as i only know the very basics. :roll:
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Postby 2810712 » Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:50 am

Free enerbgy is probabl;y a concept, not a form of energy , it only tells us if the system can do any useful work or not .


I also, need to revisit that chapter.

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Postby cytochromeP » Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:56 am

2810712 wrote:Free enerbgy is probabl;y a concept, not a form of energy , it only tells us if the system can do any useful work or not .

hrushikesh


I agree that free energy is a concept. But nonetheless it is an entity which does decrease in the course of a reaction. It is of paramount importance for the validity of our current biological framework (model).
Yes it does tell us whether a system can do useful work. Now consider this "closed" system - neither matter nor energy can get in. The components within this system will react with each other so that system acquires lowest state of free energy and maximum stability. Once this stage is reached the system shud not undergo any further net change - since it has run out of its quota of free energy.
Now replace this closed system by our universe - another "closed" system.
. . .
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Postby 2810712 » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:34 am

Yeah, u mean that ultimately our universe must get unable to do useful work. Yes this should be the thing, i also thik that . Similarly our universe should also ultimately terminate into an orderless[ full of disorder] system.
But i wonder if there can be negative value of free energy. If it is true , then lowest free energy possibleis not zero but negative infinity. So , still in such a state system can do usefulwork in opposite direction. What do u think.

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Postby cytochromeP » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:29 am

2810712 wrote: But i wonder if there can be negative value of free energy. If it is true , then lowest free energy possibleis not zero but negative infinity. So , still in such a state system can do usefulwork in opposite direction. What do u think.

hrushikesh


I must say that when I first read your reply that I thought this is an interesting question. It does seem deep. I wiill give it a thought hrushi.
Besides, I also googled for this phenomenon of decreasing free energy. It seems people already know it. It is called "heat death" of the universe. Sir Eddington is said to have coined the term.
P.S. Its amazing that in science that somebody out there has already thought about 'it'...that 'it which you feel so good that it came from your head'. It is indeed hard to do original ground breaking things in science :roll:
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Postby mith » Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:52 pm

kinda makes ya wish you lived in the 1890's :D.

All the inventions have already been invented, the patent office should close down.
Living one day at a time;
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Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
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Postby 2810712 » Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:11 am

:P It's a really good thing came in ur mind , and i think there are still , things we don't know about , so such minds are still at advantage.
Heat death - first ofall , thanks for the term.
qs -why heat ? ? ? G is not heat. What's ur opinion??? :shock:

i'll also google as soon as possible [ sorry , but my medical entrance exam is too close now, so please understand] . :oops:

thanks,

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Postby xup88 » Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:58 pm

Isn't the temperature of space 3 kelvin, and at one piont would of been over 100 kelvin, so the energy is beening lost as space exspands.
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Postby 2810712 » Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:30 am

good pt.,yeah , xpantion leads to loss of energy for a system but if the system is whole universe then where does this energy go ? ? ?

So, directly we can not say that energy is reduced. We can say ability of doing work is reduced or entropy increases , but [energy + mass' energy ]is constant.

This is MO what is YO ???

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Postby mith » Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:48 am

That is a big question...if the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?
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Postby Coexist » Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:50 pm

Isn't the temperature of space 3 kelvin, and at one piont would of been over 100 kelvin, so the energy is beening lost as space exspands.


^^ energy dont get "lost" does it? i was laways tought energy just get turned into different forms. The expansion of the universe surely just means the energy is being spread out over greater volume? Correct me if im worng. All the tlak about closed and open universes is very interesting, I think that there is a new thoery about "Dark Energy" which apprently is the opposite to gravity and what makes the universe carry on expanding rather than collapse in on itself. But I have only heard rumours of this dont even know the very basics of it. Also "what is the universe expanding into" very good question, and wouldnt u like to know :) as would all of us.
But i recomned reading A short History of Nearly Everything : Bill Bryson This puts lots of stuff into lamens for the commoners like myself and really makes u appreciate how lucky we are to be here today. Worth the read. Oh and yeh... aint this a bio forum? lol :)

greetz Coe`
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