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Origin of life

Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.

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Re: Origin of life

Postby Springer » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:27 am

Jdban wrote:My biology teacher recently showed us a video of evolution.
It suddenly showed one day when DNA existed, and replicated itself, gained a membrane and lived on.
How could something so complex and alive form from chemicals.
I don't understand it.
I would like some help, so thanks in advance.


Abiogenesis is completely without scientific basis. There is no possible way that matter can evolve into life, regardless of the amount of time you alot. Evolutionists have tried to "divorce" themselves from abiogenesis because they know it's impossible.
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Postby Excalibur » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:33 am

^ The theory of evolution is wrong, but it is amazing that people still stick to it.

Its quite similar to a polytheistic religion in my OPINION, as deep thinkers have given the explanation that their can only be 1 God, as he must have full control and power, and be outside of time himself.
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Re: Origin of life

Postby canalon » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:41 am

Springer wrote:Abiogenesis is completely without scientific basis. There is no possible way that matter can evolve into life, regardless of the amount of time you alot. Evolutionists have tried to "divorce" themselves from abiogenesis because they know it's impossible.


Well, scientists knows that there must be at least one event of abiogenesis to create life. Wether it happened on earth or somewhere else is another story. As for the no way for matter to evolve into life, well, living beings are made of matter without anything special to it, so impossibility is not the word I would use. Highly improbable would be better. But a billion year is a long time, and the earth is big.

Excalibur wrote:^ The theory of evolution is wrong, but it is amazing that people still stick to it.

Its quite similar to a polytheistic religion in my OPINION, as deep thinkers have given the explanation that their can only be 1 God, as he must have full control and power, and be outside of time himself.


^ The fact that 2+2=4 is wrong, but it is amazing that people still stick to it.

This sound phoney? well I have as much proof for my affirmation than our friend, so anything more substantial?
As for the rest of the argument, I would remind you that there are many great thinkers and they have said a lot, and not all of them agree with your statement. Marx was a great thinker, and he would not agree, neither Socrates, the Buddha, Gandhi, me (hell, why not? I can be very deep sometimes ;) ) and many others.
But I have to admit that sometimes I have felt the noodly appendage, and thought that I should reconsider some of my opinions and put on my full pirate regalia....
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Re: Origin of life

Postby Springer » Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:39 pm

[
quote="Canalon
Well, scientists knows that there must be at least one event of abiogenesis to create life. Wether it happened on earth or somewhere else is another story. As for the no way for matter to evolve into life, well, living beings are made of matter without anything special to it, ...

There is something very special to it... it is organized... and that cannot possibly come about through random molecular interactions.

...so impossibility is not the word I would use. Highly improbable would be better. But a billion year is a long time, and the earth is big.


Abiogenesis is impossible because the improbability is so great. Laws of physics and chemistry are based on probability. The second law of thermodynamics is based on probability. Matter could theoretically decrease in entropy over time... it's just that the probability of doing so is astronomically remote.
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Re: Origin of life

Postby canalon » Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:47 pm

Springer wrote:There is something very special to it... it is organized... and that cannot possibly come about through random molecular interactions.


Well crystals are organized and they have nothing special. It all happens by random molecular interactions..

Abiogenesis is impossible because the improbability is so great. Laws of physics and chemistry are based on probability. The second law of thermodynamics is based on probability. Matter could theoretically decrease in entropy over time... it's just that the probability of doing so is astronomically remote.


There is a difference between impossibility and improbability. And given the right scale of time anything improbale will happen.
The second law of thermodynamics state that entropy can only increase or be stable in a closed system. The only closed system is the whole universe. But it did not state that locally entropy cannot decrease even with high probability, as long as the law is conserved on average.

And as a matter of fact I want to remind you that the apparition of life do not stricto sensu concern evolution. Evolution applies only to organisms that reproduce and compete for ressources. Tne origin of life is just another matter, and will probably never completely be understood due to its uniqueness.
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Postby Springer » Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:59 pm

dmvprof wrote:
Poison wrote:There are some parts that are not explained yet, but that is the most logical-therefore the best- theory we have.


I don't know about your biology teacher or what video he's showing you, but the Theory of Evolution is completely silent on the 'Origin of Life'.

The Theory of Evolution is a theory about the origin of species, not life.

Hence the name of Darwin's work...'The Origin of Species'.

The study of life from non-living things is 'abiogenesis'.


It has become fashionable in evolutionary circles to deny that abiogenesis has anything to do with evolution. Although included as part of evolutionary textbooks for decades, proponents of evolution are now distancing themselves from abiogenesis for one reason... because it is impossible and introduces a fatal flaw in the theory of evolution. They think that by artbitrarily excluding abiogenesis from evolutionary theory, that evolutionary theory somehow remains intact.
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Postby Poison » Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:27 pm

By the way, I'm studying bio at the university. They do not show videos or that kind of stuff.
Show me a better theory then.
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Postby Springer » Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:45 pm

Poison wrote:By the way, I'm studying bio at the university. They do not show videos or that kind of stuff.
Show me a better theory then.


All life requires DNA, which is organized information. Creation of information requires intelligent design. Therefore, the origin of life required intelligent design.
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Postby Poison » Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:00 pm

Intelligent design? You just say that it is "created". I want better than this please.
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Postby mith » Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:16 pm

Intelligent design could mean aliens designed everything no?
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Postby Springer » Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:47 pm

mithrilhack wrote:Intelligent design could mean aliens designed everything no?

Panspermia is just adding more time to the equation. Abiogenesis is impossible regardless of how much time you allow.
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Postby canalon » Sat Dec 24, 2005 3:48 am

Springer wrote:All life requires DNA, which is organized information. Creation of information requires intelligent design. Therefore, the origin of life required intelligent design.


All life requires informations to be passed from one generation to another. On earth it's by the mean of DNA, but it could be anything. Like code in computerized artificial life.
By the way, artificial life experiments, even though quite simplified, and based show that information can emerge from chaos without intelligent selection, but by selection darwinian style.

ANd could you explain exactly why creation of information requires intelligent design?
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