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Origins of life

Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.

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Postby AstusAleator » Sat Apr 01, 2006 4:13 pm

Alex, the same rules I listed above are used to determine the higher taxonomic levels as well.
A very important tool in determining the levels of taxonomy is cladistics. It forms relationships based on information on selected traits. for example:
Say we have animals 1 through 10, and we identify 10 traits (a-j). Identify which animal has (1) or does not have (0) each trait, then try to arrange them in the most parsimonious fashion.

a b c d e f g h i j
1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
3 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
4 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
5 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
6 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0
7 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
8 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0
9 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0
101 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0

So animal 1, according to this, would be the most ancestral, and 10 would be the most derived. Of course, not every diagram is this easy to arrange, but that's the basic structure.
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Postby damien james » Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:28 am

I remember cladograms, haha. Been so long.
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Postby Linn » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:44 am

Hello, hello, hello, everybody!!
it is I, your friendly pain :evil:
AstusAleator,
What do you believe?
and do you really think the bible is not scientific
and if so why?
just curious, and want to listen to what you think :)
"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these".

~ George washington Carver
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Postby AstusAleator » Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:07 am

Oh, I can't decide if I should reply now (will be shorter cuz I'm tired) or wait til I've got some energy....

I guess I'll reply now. *takes a deep breath*

Linn:
At this point in my life I'm not exactly sure what I believe as far as the metaphysical or spiritual is concerned. I grew up in an incredibly conservative episcopalian(sp?) trinitarian protestant family. I lost my commitment to my faith when I was a freshman in highschool, but I didn't really start changing my beliefs until around my sophomore year of college. To a degree, I think I'll always have a part of me that believes everything I was taught as a child. More recently, I've begun to explore my spiritual side again, but keeping an open mind and open eyes. From the things I've felt and witnessed throughout my life, I can in no way deny the existence of a god or spirit. In fact, I'm sure something of that sort exists, and may even take an active role in human lives from time to time.
I do not believe that the Bible can be taken literally as scientific literature.
I do believe that it can be used for personal growth, and as an authority in one's personal life.
If a person chooses to believe in Noah's flood as a matter of faith, it becomes to them a testament of God's wrath, power, wisdom, and benevolance. The lessons and meanings that can be taken from these stories are what are important in determining a Christian's personal walk with God.

If scientific evidence contradicts literal biblical accounts, that doesn't make the author a liar, nor does it discredit the Word that lies within. I have no doubt that the authors of these manuscripts felt the contents to be absolutely true, but more importantly, they knew that the meanings/implications/lessons/values contained in them were more important that the story itself.
Really you've got to step back and ask yourself, Why did the author write this? Or for the older tales, Why would a story like this be passed down in oral tradition?

I'd better get back to my previous statement, "I do not believe that the Bible can be taken literally as scientific literature." I say this because for every scientific "truth" that can be found in the bible there are a plethora of scientific amibguities or just plain impossibilities. A man that's been dead for 3 days via crucifixion and impalement coming back to life is not possible, in any known scenario that can be defined by science. Neither is water turning into wine.
Now I will admit that there are some rather astonishing scientific observations mentioned in the bible, and I don't doubt that the Bible provided a material basis for early science. After all, some of our earliest famous scientists were monks and clergymen.


The Bible makes observations, but it does not form testable hypotheses. It skips all the steps in the scientific method and goes straight to absolute truth. Furthermore this "truth" is perpetuated by dogma. That is why the Bible, and religious believes adhering to literalist interpretations of it cannot be scientific.

Can they be true? Possibly. I think our discussions on this matter in the past have blurred the line between science and truth, sometimes equating them. Calling the Bible unscientific is not the same thing as calling it untrue.

Now I'm going to bed. Nite
Dave
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Postby Linn » Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:14 am

OK
when I find my dam glasses I can read that, :x
I had three pair somewhere....I an barely see to write this.
This is what you (young uns)have to
look forward to :presbyopia :evil: :evil:
(hope I spelled that correct)
so I printed it out and will try to read it between work.
talk to ya later :)
Lynne
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Postby alextemplet » Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:51 pm

Actually, Astus, that was a very well-made point, even if you were tired. Certainly gave me something to think about. I think I've been trying to say something like that but I was never able to put in words quite as well as you have. Good job! :P
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Postby Linn » Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:17 pm

Hello and
Thank you Dave,
I admire you for using your own mind instead of
just believing what you are told.

[
quote]for 3 days via crucifixion and impalement coming back
to life is not possible, in any known scenario
that can be
defined by science. Neither is water turning into wine.
[/quote]

How about quantum physics.
Do you believe in that?

Can subatomic particles be here and there at the same time?
Is time travel possible?
will a watch have a different time than time standing still
if it gos the speed of light?

'with God all things are possible" That is why he is God!!
God knows everything about physics, biology, all the sciences.
We have only scratched the surface.
Things that we have discovered that are possible could
hardly have been imagined only a short time ago.

I asked before how we can explain some things in the bible
that would be impossible for humans to have known in this
time frame? does any one have any thoughts about how they
got that information?

You say the bible makes observations, but actualy it explains every thing very convieniently for us. And it is in harmony with science, as I have said before it was explained with different words perhaps than we use today.

I wonder why all of a sudden there is such an element, exsisting to
subvert the bible which being inspired by God they are denying him.

There are so many things yet to be discovered,
I think it is a good idea to kep an open mind either way.

Things mentioned in the bible:

the way things were created, in harmony with science

Quntum physics
genetic disease past on
genetic mutations
Hybrids
quarintine of dead bodies
how disease is spread
how to make soap
celestrial "chariots"
prophesy that has come true
history in line with nabonidus, Joesephus
and other historians.
moving things without number in the ocean
etc....

those are things that lead me to trust that the writetrs of the bible were privy to information from other worldy sources. namely God, and the creator/s

One final thought

the account of the crossing the red sea on dry ground was
until about 15 years ago scoffed at until it was proven with
experiments to be possible.
Lynne
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~ George washington Carver
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Postby David George » Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:09 am

I have not yet read about quantum physics in my school.My favorite physics topic is Aerodyamics but we donot have anything about it in the Indian syllabus :( .Anyway ou seem to have come to peace terms respecting both of our views.That is nice :).Talking about diseases I donot believe any reiglion's God created them.Cos the same God often cures it being partial to humans and violating the laws of mutalism.Why does He do that.This will actually increase the Human population making it dangerous to the environment and also humans.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution"
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Postby Linn » Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:36 pm

David,
I want the same thing as all of you.
to find facts.

I think people can glean a lot from the bible.
For example, if some of the things in the bible are true,
we will find them eventualy.
What about the nephilim? (spelling?)

If there was a giant race, then Perhaps archeologists will unearth the bones one day. I need to see more than one fossil to believe though.
LIke the "hobbits" they found. There was more than one.

Even, if you approach things with skeptism, and dig for truth to disprove the bible, if then you find supportive evidence, will you concede?
Last edited by Linn on Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby alextemplet » Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:44 pm

Plenty of people try to disprove the Bible, but that's pretty close to impossible. It's already been firmly established as a historical record. Although the creation and flood stories can be questioned, they are only disprovable if they are interpreted literally. And the rest of the Bible stands very solidly upon historical evidence. Like I said in the medicine symbol thread, this "The Bible must be wrong." attitude is bull.
Generally speaking, the more people talk about "being saved," the further away they actually are from true salvation.

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Postby Linn » Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:51 pm

Perhaps you have noticed, as have I,
the current trend to subvert the bible.
I am sure it will get much worse.
"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these".

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Postby David George » Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:01 am

Although the creation and flood stories can be questioned, they are only disprovable if they are interpreted literally. And the rest of the Bible stands very solidly upon historical evidence.

I donot find any historical evidence for the Egyptian pharoah Shishak who looted Solomn's treasure there is no such King in Egypt.Experts can only say it may be this King or that but no solid evidence.I have read in Egyptian inscriptions about the Israelites being slaves but no where about those Plagues.Also can you tell me during which kings period did moses appear.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution"
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