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Origins of life

Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.

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Postby Tyran » Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:37 am

I'd have to say I agree with your girlfriend, our innante responses arose through evolution. This could be debated for a long time, with no real answer coming out of it though. Maybe these have somehow become "scared" onto the brain? but who really knows?
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Strange argument

Postby deostroll » Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:01 pm

I'd like to simply somehow endorse faith into this idea of survival. By now it must be clear to all that it is not survival of the fittest I'm talking about, but rather it is about staying alive.

I can't remember how exactly I got myself thinking about survival in the beginning, but ever since that happened, I started to take a new perspective of life. And according to my perspective I feel we are here simply out of coincidence. Life on earth is just a big coincidence.

I am sure people are surely going to disagree on this note, but really I do not mean to rouse a conflict because I stated something entirely rude - completely against religious ethics. This should not make people mad or think that I am bogus and hence condemn me. Rather I want people to be conscious of their own lives (the human race as a whole) and then do everything that possibly justifies its existence.

Well, I guess I was just doing that, and that was when I thought about love. Love is something universal as far as life on earth is concerned. All species exhibit this trait. A very good example is maternal affection - the love of a mother towards the offspring. The mother protects the offspring from possible threat and sometimes may even put her life on risk for the survival of her offspring.

This is a vital thing for everything that survives on earth. Just imagine if there was no such thing like love would we be alive? Would there be any meaning and purpose for survival, or simply staying alive?. My argument is not that love justifies our survival on earth; it is simply that love was something essential for life to continue on the face of earth.

This argument somehow supports my idea that all life on earth has to essentially satisfy a requirement of staying alive.

There is more of such thoughts to come. There is a lot more of what we need to know. I am a kind of veteran thinker of such abstract concepts. And I try to use whatever my knowledge of evolution. I would like anyone to debate this idea.

Lastly, are there people who are teachers here? Because honestly I feel people who possess a sound knowledge of the concepts of biology should interact. I simply think it is something vital for the community of biology-thinkers.
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hmm...

Postby mattyogo » Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:25 pm

Well I have to be frank, that I do not really see the argument here..

To me it is of course, that everything must posess the will to survive as the most important trait.. if something would not want to survive, it would make no effort to do so (like eat for example).. and thus would die out. The point of everything on earth, every living thing is most basically wanting to stay alive...

In the case of mothers, I would say, that this is preceded by the will to keep the species alive (which is why it will sacryfice itself for its offspring).

It is just my two cents about the matter...
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Postby canalon » Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:30 pm

My 2 cents:
- The importance of Love for Life: none. If some animals that invest a lot in child rearing maybe put their life at risk to protect their investment, many live beings (plants, bacteria, animals) just throw their gametes in the wild hoping for them to meet the right one, and later on make their living without any help from parents. Same things for social insects: They will rather protect the mother queen than the larvae....
The selfish genes theories, even if too gene-centered to be true in my opinion, probably have some good insight into why some animals would give more importance in offspring survival than others.

-Will to survive: Do not even think about it. There is nothing like will in most live organisms. Be carefull not to project your feeling/emotions to the rest of biology! Antropomorphism is a dangerous way to go if you want to become a good scientist (this is also true for the above). Live beings do not desire to survive, they just do. Those who are not adapted or have inbred unfit behaviours did not, but not because they did not want to, but because they couldn't.

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Postby MrMistery » Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:47 pm

I totally agree with the fact that we are a coincidence, just like everything on earth. Don't forget, life apperead as a coincidence.
Totally agreed with patrick in both points. The importance of love? Come on, let's be serious. Do you think bacteria, or plants, or fungus exhibit love?
About the will to survive? Will is the most complex neurological action of a human. Do you think a plant wants to grow? It grows because that is what it's DNA codes for: a lot of proteins that will make it grow.
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Postby mith » Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:47 pm

I think this came from a movie,

"Love is nature's trick to make us reproduce"
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
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Postby MrMistery » Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:51 pm

HAHAHA!!!
Really cool. And it is true, also.
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Postby MrMistery » Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:00 pm

On second thought, maybe it is not true entirely. Think about this: I am in love with my gf. If another woman comes and proposes me to..hmm.. mate with her, i will turn her down resulting in the fact that i will have less offspring that i would have had without the existance of love. On the other hand, i don't know how many guys would do the same as me, so the human species is safe :D
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Postby mith » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:32 pm

You'd dump her because if she's pregnant already, she'll be useless(reproductively speaking) for 9+ months.
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about will...

Postby mattyogo » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:33 pm

Maybe will is not the best word.... but still everything that is on earth (even bacteria) want to survive..

Now I think it is more philosophy to thing about what we mean by this "want" .. a bacteria survives.. It looks for food (chemicals that it can use to grow, to make energy, etc)... of course it does not think about it.. but in it's genome it is coded, that it will move to places which have more energy aboundant compounds, if there are not enough it might form a spore and so on... basically all a bacteria does IS survive.. to me.. this is a sort of will.. of course it is not a feeling, it is not conscious in any way, but still anything that "wants" to live.. must have in it encoded somehow everything that will move it toward living... of course if it does not have this encoded it will die out...
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Postby MrMistery » Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:36 pm

You have to make a clear distnction between philosophy and science. Here is a better example: in the rotulian reflex, does your leg want to bounce(maybe not the best word)? No, it simply an unconditioned relfex that is triggered automatically. Same thing with bacteria...
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primitive impulse to survive

Postby deostroll » Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:20 pm

Have you ever heard of the phrase: the primitive impulse to survive?

I have heard it being mentioned on the popular television series “The X-Files.” Initially I never knew what it meant. Then I saw a documentary on Discovery Channel – it was about some particular aspect of human evolution; because of it we humans remain to be the most dominant species. In other words the main theme was why humans became the dominant species. How was our evolution different from all other species?

After those two incidents, I began to wonder about fear. (However, fear was not the subject of that documentary). I asked myself, “What was the real purpose of fear?” It seemed to me that all of us need a certain kind of fear (basic fear) to escape what was a common phenomenon during the primitive days – predation. So fear is a kind of adaptation if you think this way. But when and how did fear evolve? I have no answers for that.

This fact is irrepressible – the idea of survival is evident. But then, if you wanted to know why, the answer is vague – survival is simply there because we have to survive.

Now when we come to the lower level of organisms like bacteria, fungi, etc the idea of survival does exist. Now you might think that I am really obsessed or crazy for that matter. But a bacteria searching for food does indicate it wants to live. But how do we relate to it? We don’t really know. We don’t know if the bacteria can really think like we do? I mean I am not sure. However, you must realise, intelligence, as such, is a construct of survival. It simply means that if not for survival, intelligence would have no qualified purpose…

Although, I realise it is strange to think of things this way, I only wish that we all understand certain aspects of our existence and the existence of other species. Saying this much, I really want to know: do you believe that it is good to go on thinking like this…?
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