Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.
11 posts • Page 1 of 1
Been chatting with a Strongly believing christian girl now for several days, been arguing around with no results,
Personally I don't find Jobe Martins argument very convincing because he doesn't explain why the evolution couldn't handle such task it self and why it needs a supernatural creator to achieve such evolution.
This is her proof that Charles Darwin's Evolution Theory is bull*hit, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPaIob4KuXc&fb_source=message which i don't take that nicely, Sure he couldn't get everything right, but he was the one carving out the track.
What is your view on Dr Jobe Martins, do you think he brings up valid arguments?
Do you think he is able to achieve what he tries to achieve in the scientific community to debunk the evolution theory and prove the intelligent design?
Any answer would be appreciated !
My only advice is believe that "believing" christian girl. God created the heavens and earth. It only takes a genuine study and a trip down to the local library or bookshop with some loose change and you'll find that out. Regards..Grant
Dr. Jobe Martin is not a doctor of any affect, he was a dentist. He seems to have a desperate need for attention that would let him twist rational thought so far as to make it unrecognizable. His explanations of what he has convinced himself as being true are beyond childish and can only be described as delutional. It is no wonder that Americans have fallen so far in the realm of science with people like Dr. Jobe Martin spewing out idiot theories as some kind of fact. I wish someone would convince him that taking his picture will steal his soul, I'm sure he would not be too hard to convince.
You don't have to believe in a god to know that evolution is one of the dumbest theories out there. I can literally go on for hours on how it is dis-proven by facts we have known for years. But instead basing on what Dr. Jobe is simply stating how did all these animals evolve? What animal that we know for a fact existed evolved into a giraffe? Or really any animal for that matter? Where did all the half animals go? Where is there a timeline that shows what animals came first? Please consider all 8 millions of them. Do you any of you that believe in evolution take just a few minutes to consider how different each any is and where are all the lost links between each one vanished to? There hasn't been and will never be an answer for that. Please, please attempt to explain how this can be possible? You would be the first. This is just one of hundreds of facts that go against the evolution theory. If you would like to pass this question I would understand. I have a ton more that evolutionists won't give a time to day to consider because they completely go against scientific facts. I don't mean to come across as a know it all. Actually I'm one of the few that can admit that I don't know all of life's unanswered questions. The problem with creationist vs evolutionist is they both believe without a doubt that they're right. I know more about evolution (one of the main reasons i dont believe it) then most evolutionist I come across that I have to tell them what they believe. Is that not in its self show that people aren't thinking for themselves? That is all I won't both parties to do. The one thing creationist has is that they admit their beliefs are just that beliefs based on faith. Evolutions however won't go into the details that are addressed but still continue to believe it as fact. Arguing is pointless when you have people that believe their theory is fact vs people that have decided to have blind faith.
nhutton - OMG - Really? You obviously know nothing of evolution. Can you name one dis-proven fact? You see facts are things that have been proven already. THere are a great many theories that have been disproved but they were only theories. Evolution is a theory the same way gravity is still considered a theory, do you know why? Gravity is still a theory because we still do not fully understand it, it is actually very complex, did you know that light is affected by gravity? bet you didn't know that.
So evolution is only a theory because we can not know for sure all the details that cover billions of years, I'm guessing you do not know the details of the last 10 years as well as the detail are know and proven for the evolutionary process of the last 100,000 years.
Evolution does not ask blind faith, in fact it is one of the most tested theories ever conceived.
Lets take your fine example, what animal evolved into a giraffe , well, no animal that we can point to evolved specifically into a giraffe, it took millions of years and countless variations. That would be exactly like asking you at what point did you go from being a baby to the age you are now? Can you tell me? Can you pin point it for me? OH, better yet. How can you prove that the baby Jesus is the same as the grown up jesus? Where is the evidence? where is the proof? What documentation do you have? How can you be sure that it is not a completely different person? And what proof do you have that this jesus ever existed? NOTHING - that's what you would have. Unlike evolution that have more evidence than you could go through in your lifetime. The only trouble is that it is not a picture book and you need to use your brain to put the pieces of the puzzle together. Because for every billion animals that have existed there are about 5 that have left evidence of there existence. Basically it is like trying to show a picture of puzzle that has a billion pieces but you only have a few thousand. Now most of the ones you have go together so you can see bits of the picture but the rest you need to guess at. But you know what? I bet if I showed even you a digital photograph that could easily have a billion pixels, but one in which they were all white except for a few thousand of them, I bet even you could probably make out what it is a picture of. AND THAT is how we know evolution to be true! Because enough of the bits have been found and put together to paint enough of the picture that we have a good sense of what the picture actually looks like. You don't need evidence of every single stage and in reality there isn't evidence because it is incredibly rare for an animal to be trapped in the perfect conditions that allow it to be found as a fossil.
So to your point, arguing is useless with someone who is completely out of touch with REALITY and thinks it is more possible that man was made of dirt and woman was made of man's rib. That bedtime story is the only one that requires faith, it almost makes Harry Potter sound more plausable.
You KNOW nothing of evolution, you may think you do but you don't because if you did you would no there are not answers to every question for a process that has taken billions of years. But really I find it hard to understand how you could not believe since I am guessing you believe in magic and that all the animals just appeared just as they are and that man is the one who must of hunted the dinosaurs to extinction and that's why they are not around anymore, or don't you believe in dinosaurs, I suppose if you believe the bible then you don't, must be one of god's tricks. And you must also believe than an old guy built a big boat and put a pair of every single animal on earth into it, and I'm sure you have lots of evidence for that one to go with all your jesus evidence.
But in the end it doesn't matter, you don't need to believe in evolution and it doesn't matter that I only believe in reality, because we are going to end up in the same place and chances are in 10,000 years there will be absolutely zero evidence that either one of us ever existed and I am fine with that. ANd since I am sure that scares you then you can keep telling yourself you are going to go to heaven, just like that group of young men convince themselves when they flew planes into the world trade center. You can do anything, as long as you believe.
I'm sorry but I just watch a bit more of this Jobe Martin DDS (that's dentist) and his is not even an argument. All he is really saying is "I can't wrap my head around how this could have evolved so here is what I think must have happened, that grand designing who has absolutely no skill as an engineer or designer slapped these animals together and then jerry rigged everything in true Rube Goldberg fashion so that it all works but in the most remarkably convoluted way. AND he did this by magic".
That's his argument "I don't know so it must have been magic" or some other word you want to use to describe making an animal appear out of essentially nothing. Creation is just another way of saying "I don't know, I don't understand and I don't care". But please stop making yourself look like such and idiot by arguing god must have done it.
I am getter pretty tired of people toting the bible and scriptures as some kind of
proof of anything and then try to argue actual evidence is proof of nothing.
Defend evolution? I don't have to, it's actual and there is plenty of actual evidence but just try to defend creation? If you know for a fact that there is a higher power then good for you. I don't know that. But I am very confident that the god, or gods,
that are written in any book, including the bible, are only made up. They
have come strictly from the imaginations of man. And the only reference
anyone can ever come up with as any proof of god is those books that are
made up from the imaginations of man.
So if you believe in a higher power great, but you can not use any book or
anything written down as an example or proof of anything other than that man
has an incredible imagination. There is no documentation that is evidence
of god. And even the documentation of Jesus is pretty damn sketchy.
I don't know how old the posters here are or the age of the girl who started the argument - the girl referred to in the first post of the thread.
I am a convinced Christian who goes to a church were many take the young earth position as gospel.
They are good people - may are engineers and I have known doctors and biologists who hold to that position - adamant that evolution is a bad explanation.
I would refer people here to a book by a man ho taught biology all of his life at Gordon College -
a Christian school.
"Biology Through The Eyes of Faith" by Richard Wright
Wright is a Evolutionary Creationist - he believes in evolution - many Christians do - many Christian biology professors do. And Christians who have credentials and are well accomplished in other areas of science.
Christians have to interpret Genesis and the rest of the Bible as well as nature - we feel the same God made them both. They are two books - or ways - God speaks to man.
Some like Dr. Martin reject evolution in favor of a literal interpretation of Genesis Chapter 1.
But there are scientists who accept both the findings of modern science - some just think the days mentioned in Genesis are best understood as long ages of indeterminate time.
Some see the passage as providing a literary framework that tells us about God and man - without
necessarily needing to get into the science at all.
They believe God did it of course - but the mechanics of how he did it or of how long it took are not revealed.
I take that position on a webpage I am just beginning to build where I will try to argue for the spiritual authority of the Bible on other grounds -
I take the early chapters of Genesis as prophecy - and plan to go to develop the webpage explaining the prophecies about Jesus that that were given hundreds of years before He was incarnated.
If anyone is interested they are more than welcome to visit the webpage http://knowyjesus.net/
but this webpage assumes the visitors will be of college age or older.
It can be exasperating trying to argue with people once they have latched onto a cherished belief.
You can also google
Reasons To Believe - http://www.reasons.org/
Biologos - http://biologos.org/
The Faraday Institute - http://www.faraday.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk/
I personally find the discussions of these last three groups much more credible than the one Dr. Martin represents.
I must admit I stumbled onto this site in a search of who Dr. Jobe Martin was... I am almost left speechless at the ignorance, not to mention the determination of some people to refuse logic, clear thinking, science or incredibly even facts! One comment against Creationism was "Creationist have yet to craft an intelligent reason why creationism is even a viable theory." While this is accurate it isn't argument but an arguably accurate statement!
I have spent my life studying peoples belief systems and helping those with depression and anxiety as a result of their beliefs being shattered. Beliefs are peoples reality and must be respected even when they are counter to yours, however a discussion or debate on any subject is healthy and may sway someones opinion if argued correctly. This may however be futile if they have been indoctrinated or been "brainwashed" by their religion, piers, education or cultural position.
So to point... Creationism is not based on science but unsupported opinions, nor will any religion stand up to any scientific scrutiny! While I understand the need for religious agendas and doctrines to gain control over a population, it is unfair to present their teachings in what can only be descried as stories, fantasies or deceptions as facts! Dr. Jobe Martin's (Dentist) arguments for gods existence are for the most part simplistic and based in ignorance not fact. I respectfully look forward to any argument based on the sciences and not pure Metaphysics without a science foundation of some description, I truly hope people will think for themselves rather than thoughtlessly follow a stated dogma!
First, inability to prove existence of god is NOT prof of evolution. I, for one, don't believe in either.
Second, "more evidence than you could go through in your lifetime" of evolution when really examine it gets reduced to smoke and mirrors. To make you understand what I am talking about, let's look at the popular show "The Universe" where an excited physicist sais "we were able to see a new star far-far away" and then you are shown colorful pictures, but look closely and you will see that he is pointing to "noise" (for luck of a better term) on the computer screen. So, the "fact" is when you point telescope in that direction, you get this "noise". What is misrepresented as fact is his conclusion that this "noise" represents a star. While he can be absolutely right, there is a chance that he can be wrong. Misrepresentation of expert conclusions as facts hinders science. It creates it's own level of indoctrination where opinion of an expert is built upon without second glace at the underlying fact.
I am a molecular biologist. Molecular biology supports molecular evolution (change over time), but not human evolution. I have not seen a single piece of evidence for it (I mean hard facts, not explanations). As far as I know, some mathematicians calculated that life must have originated before Earth. I think that is very likely.
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