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Irrefutable Facts Against Evolution

Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.

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Postby Meranda » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:49 pm

Tomn , Fantastic thread! It just goes to show that evolution has so many holes. It is no wonder why many atheists and those who believe in evolution now are saying that aliens have created us. They CANNOT DENY the evidence for an intelligent creator, yet, they just don't want Yahweh, so they resort to embracing the aliens..... The bible talks about this as the great deception.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Jeremiah 33:3 Call on me in prayer and I will answer you. I will show you great and mysterious things which you still do not know about.'

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Call to Yeshua Jesus!
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Re: Irrefutable Facts Against Evolution

Postby JackBean » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:28 am

Meranda wrote:Does A Belief In Evolution Lead To Racism?

http://thetruthwins.com/archives/does-a ... -to-racism

No, it's actually this way - people who are racists look for any reasoning to make their believes approved. And Darwinism may provide such. But that doesn't mean it's wrong.
If all the creatures were created by God with love, how so that the so religious US south used to be so racist? Where did the slavery hold the longest?

Meranda wrote:1. The Bible is Divinely inspired. It touches on an astounding remarkable amount evidence of History ,Science, Mathematics AND Medicine to the finest detail. It also has embedded Numeral Mathematics within the words, as well as THOUSANDS of Bible codes threaded within and throughout the BIBLE. (The Bible Codes and Mathematics only work in the original word of the Bible, not the modern translations) How can you possibly write a book (of 40 authors) that reads on the surface fluently, and has THOUSANDS of Modern Bible Codes, AND on top of that Multiple places of Mathematics present?

I see, so the Bible is divinely inspired. How do you know? Because the Bible says so!!!
Show me the evidence for science and medicine? Where does it state that the heart pumps blood and that brain (at least in some people) is responsible for emotions and reasoning? Where does it say that plants and animals are composed of basically the same building blocks - cells. That those are further composed from proteins and lipinds and our hereditary information is in DNA. And all of this is composed of atoms. Which are actually not not indivisible as old Greeks (but not Christians) thought, but are composed of yet another sub-atomic particles? Where does it state anything about combustion engine?

Meranda wrote:10. MILLIONS of Muslims are seeing dreams of JESUS and ARE Converting to Christianity. It shows that Yeshua Jesus cares about ALL people, and wants NONE to parish.

No, you have it actually wrong, the Christians are converting to Islam, just check the western Europe.

The rest is just such bullshit, it's even hard to comment...

Cis or trans? That's what matters.
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Re: Irrefutable Facts Against Evolution

Postby wildfunguy » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:55 am

Meranda wrote:10. MILLIONS of Muslims are seeing dreams of JESUS and ARE Converting to Christianity. It shows that Yeshua Jesus cares about ALL people, and wants NONE to parish.

I would be more impressed if God had done that for the native Africans or native Americans before any missionaries, crusaders, or emigrating Protestants had entered the picture.
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Postby Cat » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:48 pm

Meranda wrote:Tomn , Fantastic thread! It just goes to show that evolution has so many holes. It is no wonder why many atheists and those who believe in evolution now are saying that aliens have created us. They CANNOT DENY the evidence for an intelligent creator, yet, they just don't want Yahweh, so they resort to embracing the aliens.....

You got it wrong! There is NO evidence of "an intelligent creator" just as there is NO evidence of microbe to human evolution. There is, however, abundant evidence that WE can create new species and WE can send them to other planets. Hence, we can extrapolate that there is a possibility that this was done to us in the past. The theory that LIFE is older than our planet is supported by math, not bible.
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Re: Irrefutable Facts Against Evolution

Postby wildfunguy » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:02 pm

JackBean wrote:people who are racists look for any reasoning to make their believes approved. And Darwinism may provide such.

Exactly. They also used certain Bible verses to justify slavery. That doesn't mean Christianity leads to racism, it just means there are racist Christians.
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Re: Irrefutable Facts Against Evolution

Postby Sapiens » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:07 pm

Tomn wrote:I began with a discussion on the engines which drive evolution. The one fact which prevailed in that discussion was the impossibility, near impossibility, of a positive mutation (the probability is so near that it is practically impossible). Now I will simply list several well known and accepted facts which do not allow the theory of evolution to exist. To continue on the point of mutations which drive the theory of evolution, I will begin there. This will be a wealth of information. It is perfectly alright if, in your responses, that you discuss the points I have presented here one by one, listing the point number in some sort of way.

1)The Structure of Protons in the Nucleus

Protons, being of like charge, naturally repel each other. Speeds needed for nuclear fusion does not occur naturally in nature. We attempt to produce nuclear fusion, and even then, the process is not 100% efficient (during the process, protons bounce off of each other). Everything that is alive contains carbon. Period. Carbon has 6 protons. Those protons are held together by nuclear forces, which attract protons to each other when they are extremely close. Any one micrometer farther apart, and the protons split. How can, with repelling protons and with the lack of naturally occurring nuclear fusion, carbon have formed? In addition, how can anything with an atomic number (atomic number=number of protons) of 2 or higher have formed? The answer to this question is that it is frankly impossible.

Big bang attempts to explain this. However, this is simply what big bang sais: nothing took itself, and made something from nothing. The big bang theory sais that a tremendous explosion began the universe. Where did those things which the explosion was composed of came from? And if from something else where did they come from? The eventuality is that it same from nothing, or that it appeared from nowhere. Everything has a source. Things dont appear from nothing, explode, and cause the universe to expand and heat, then cool, then randomly form the earth. This, in simple common sense terms, is impossible.
God did not do it, Gravity did it. Gravity in something as massive as a star, all of which are powered by nuclear fusion, so I guess that is, after all, a natural process.
Tomn wrote:2)The Age of the Sun (Russian Sun Study and Earth's Magnetic Field)

For the theory of evolution to be possible, the sun had to have existed throughout the duration of the evolutionary time scale. Life as we know it could not have developed or exist without the sun in tow. A study was done on the sun by Russian scientists. Based on the sun's rate of nuclear fusion, the Russian scientists found the sun to be 10,000-30,000 years old.

Also supporting young age is the strength of the earth's magnetic field. Scientists have found that the magnetic field is reducing in strength at a rapid rate, with a half life of about 1,400 years. If that rate is reversed, the strength of the earth's magnetic field 20,000 years ago would be that of a magnetic star. This supports Earth's young age, as appose to evolution's over estimation.
Russian science is often wrong being more political than scientific, but I would need an actual reference to such a claim to provide a detailed rebuttal.

The Earth's magnetic field does not decay along a half-life curve, as radioactive elements do. It varies in complex and non periodic, cyclical ways, as we have demonstrated by sampling past magnetic fields as they were captured in the iron rich magma along the sides of mid ocean ridges, as the sea floor has spread.
Tomn wrote:3)Population Statistics

This science is above all the most convincing. As you can see in the chart of population growth, the human population stays relatividly stable until there is an excessive amount of exponential growth. According to evolution, humans appeared 200,000 years ago, and the modern human 40,000 years ago. The application of population growth rate has been estimated at 2%, yet it has been shown to be 1%. Every 82 years, one-third of the population is wiped out by disease, war, etc. If these rules are applied, over the course of 41,000 years, according to the observed science of population statistics, there would be 2x10^89 humans in existence today. In other words, 200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000. The current population is 6900000. There is not enough room on earth to hold this many bodies.

This is not conjecture. This is a science of population statistics. Evolution does not conform to this.
You have no understanding of population growth, it is not a constant as you have modeled it so your "rules" are wrong. There is a saying in science, "garbage in, garbage out."
Tomn wrote:4)McFall & Taylor Trail Footprints

These two trails have both dinosaur and human foot prints. For one, dinosaurs are, according to evolution millions of years old. These fossils should be underground to coordinate with the evolutionary time scale. However, the very fact that these fossils are on the surface is cause for disproof. Also, there is one particular footprint which has a human footprint inside of a dinosaur footprint. This shows that humans and dinosaurs existed recently and in the same period, which evolution is quite contradictory to.
There are exposed outcroppings of rocks of almost every conceivable age, somewhere on earth. That is dependent upon the overlying rock and the weathering that it is exposed to.

There are no human footprints inside of dinosaur footprints except in the imaginations of some charlatans.
Tomn wrote:5)Lysosome

Lysosome contain enzymes that are used to break down material and get it ready for disposal. All of these enzymes work best at a low pH, reducing the risk that these enzymes will digest the very cell they are contained in should they somehow escape from the lysosome. Keep in mind that the pH of water, from which all life spring from (according to evolution) has a pH of 7. The cell could not house these enzymes without the membrane. The conundrum of getting the enzymes inside of the membrane, or the membrane around the enzymes, or the membrane evolving, then the enzyme getting on the inside, or the enzyme evolving, then the membrane around it, is a very far stretched possibility. This is so far stretched, that it is impossible.

If the enzymes develop before the membrane, the membrane would be broken down by enzymes from the outside. If the membrane evolves before the enzymes, either the membrane is already closed and is consumed by the enzyme or the enzyme develops inside the membrane, at which point would contain water instead of cell fluid. The membrane, at that point, would be consumed from the inside out because of pH.

This is know as the, "argument from irreducible complexity," and it has been debunked many, many times with respect to many, many structures. Each time a door is slammed in the creationists' face (as it has been with respect to many structures and many metabolic pathways) they attempt to open another one, and the Evolutionists scurry about and slam it too, and the process goes on and on.

But the truth is, even if the Evolutionists can't (for the moment) explain something, all that wins for the Creationists is the admission that the Evolutionists don't know (yet). It not until the Creationists commit the intellectual fraud of making an argument from ignorance, that they can pretend to have taken some ground. But the reality is that even if something cannot, at this moment, be perfectly explained, that is not evidence that "Goddidit." That is only evidence that, perhaps, we don't know (yet). “God of the Gaps” doesn’t cut it.

Michael Behe, the prominent Creationist, defines an "irreducibly complex form" as: "composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning."

While surrounded by some fancy words and the language of science, this is nauht but his personal incredulity that the world could arise through naturalistic processes. Behe's argument is no more advanced or "evolved" than William Paley's "Watch Argument" which stated that since a watch looked created, it must have a creator. Essentially, Behe is stating "because I can't see a natural explanation, Goddidit" - this ignores any possibility that a naturalistic explanation or evolutionary pathway will later be discovered.

It's also quite telling that Behe never goes on to attempt to define "several" as a meaningful number, giving intelligent design a crucial untestability. It gives the creators infinite room to declare any number of things (that do not presently have an evolutionary explanation) "irreducibly complex", while at the same time denying the applicability to other structures with a known evolutionary history.

Biologist Björn Brembs suggests an alternative definition for irreducibly complexity: "A statement, fact or event so simple it cannot be simplified any further, but still too complex to be grasped by a creationist."

Although irreducible complexity is offered as evidence of creationism, this conclusion is questionable. Robustness is generally considered to indicate good design, not precariousness. Which parachute would you consider better designed - one which ceased to function if a single part was missing, or one which has a back-up ripcord? Irreducible complexity is at best evidence for crappy design and at worst an example of highly muddled thinking disguised as “common sense.”

That is why I now try to not address arguments from irreducible complexity and ignorance in the specific but rather dispose of the entire class of such foolishness in one swell foop.

Among the more famous early instances of an argument from "irreducible complexity" is the argument by Herbert Spencer that the huge antlers of the Irish Elk together with the other bodily structures needed to support them formed a combination that could not have arisen by natural selection alone (Robert J. Richards, Was Hitler a Darwinian?: Disputed Questions in the History of Evolutionary Theory. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2013, page 125).

Another obvious counterpoint is that irreducible complexity can easily be demonstrated in technology, and the Creationists’ arguments become utterly ludicrous when applied to a real process of design: e.g., a modern steel mill makes steel, but has vital components that are themselves made of steel. The Creationists’ claim, applied to this example, would be "a designer must have magically created the steel components of the first mill,” rather than imagine that perhaps the first steel was not made in a modern steel mill.

One way in which "Irreducibly complex" structures develop is via a process known as scaffolding, wherein a structure gains in complexity via duplication and mutation of parts, then parts are knocked out via mutations, leaving a structure with no direct linear development from the original, basic structure, much the way an arch is built. Other paths by which irreducibly complex structures may form include cooption of parts from other structures. Both of these can be seen in the case of the bacterial flagellum, which includes many parts taken from a secretory pump.

Another is "function shift" which can also explain how irreducibly complex structures can evolve. During evolution, a feature may shift from one function to another-a classic example is the feathers of a bird. They originally evolved in dinosaurs as a way to keep warm, but birds then evolved to use them for flight. Half a wing might not be useful for flying, but it will still keep you warm. Our arms are another example-they were originally legs, but evolved into arms when we became bipedal.

Additionally, to assert that something is irreducibly complex is to assert that none of the parts could have provided a benefit by themselves. The more parts there are, the more impressive it is that all of them developed; however, this also means that there are more possibilities that have to be eliminated. For instance, if someone claims that there are ten parts to a particular irreducibly complex structure, then there are ten different possibilities for which one developed first. If even just one of them has a use that we are unaware of, then the structure is not irreducibly complex.

With thanks to Rationalwiki
Tomn wrote:7)The Digestive System

If we were to take away the bile lining our digestive system, the stomach acid would burn through the cell lining, and thus leak into the rest of the body, and be detrimental to survival. The process of evolution takes billion of years. An unprotected cell, if dropped in this acid, would be instantly killed. Early cells that might try to contain this acid or who merely come in contact with this acid will be instantly killed. This instant kill leaves no time to adapt. A cell cannot adapt to something it does not come in regular contact with. Just one contact is enough to kill the cell. Furthermore, our stomach acid is weak when compared to other animals, such as vultures.

Also, this is an issue similar to lysosome and their enzymes. Stomach acid would not be able to be contained. Evolution cannot explain how stomach acid ended up in the first stomach.

See (6)
Tomn wrote:8)The Probability of Cell Development

A cell, at minimum, has 60,000 proteins of which there are 100 different configurations. There are, on top of this, very complex cells and an enumeration of cell types. The chance of the random, unorchestrated assembly of a cell is 1 in 104,478,296. This is so far stretched, that it is practically impossible.

See (6)
Tomn wrote:If I were debating mutation like I was in my last piece, you could find a way around my arguments. We both evolutionist and creationists would have been debating conjectures on how evolution would compensate for difficulties in generating positive adaptations. However, most of these are either facts or a science, not conjecture. There is no way to conjecture around these. Maybe, possibly, you could provide a far stretched explanation for lysosome and the digestive system because it is your arena on development of the organism. You might also debate your way around the big band explanation. However, the rest are facts and science that evolution cannot get around, and they are facts which make evolution an impossibility. However, if you do have observed facts that contradict what is above, please elaborate on these facts.

The problem is not with with gradual (or even episodic) evolution; the problem is with the misapplication of “common sense” by fools and their tools and their invention of "facts". Your logic is fatally flawed and easily falsified in the both the specific and general case, as has been shown above.
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