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Any SOLID arguments against evolution?

Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.

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Re:

Postby christianstrategies » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:42 pm

sachin wrote:I am agree with you... christianstrategies :)

What ever you said from page 19 may be right and I respect your belief in theory of special creation. As you strongly believe in this theory, I believe in existence of wormholes and few scientist explained about the same. 8)

Yes evolutionary time line given by paleontologist may not be accurate but still it doesn't prove evolution fact wrong. :roll:
There is nothing that science can't explain (Including GOD), It takes time to revile the 100% truth behind every thing. Once people were not ready to accept that solar eclipse are caused by Sun, moon and Earth's position. They were believing in some evil power that cause eclipse and God saves sun with special power. Which is not at all correct. Few years ago wireless communication was thought to be a special power until unless we invented radio and mobiles. We may or may not survive till we successfully explain Evolution perfectly and God in terms of science but I strongly believe its not impossible. :!:



I have some solids arguments against darwinism, despite the truth of the experimental facts:

MUTANT BACTERIAS/VIRUS PROOF THE FALSEHOOD OF (THE CONCLUSIONS) OF EVOLUTIONISM

- Assuming that the AIDS virus takes 2 hours to reproduce himself in a chronic patient during 20 years we have about 90.000 generations of the very mutant and dynamic virus... calculus: 12 generations/day x 365 days x 21 years
30.000 generations by the human specie, with a very lower rate of mutations per generation compared with microbes, gives 750.000 years, with about 25 years per generation... According to the science, the human specie changed every 700.000 years... and with a very lower mutation rate per generation (!) SO, ALL (DYNAMIC/ MUTANT) BACTERIA AND VIRUS MUST CHANGE OF SPECIE AFTER 30.000 GENERATIONS OR 10 YEARS! Why? Because humans do it and with a very lower mutation rate per generation... but this change of specie by the microbes almost doesn't happen in the nature after 30.000 generations... the case of the AIDS virus is more flagrant: it mutates enormously, it generates 90.000 generations (enough to 2 million years by humans) and it doesn't change of specie...
SO WE'RE BEING MISLED BY THE SCIENCE IN WHAT CONCERNS EVOLUTIONISM AND DATES OF THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION...

- genetics already say that the mankind derives from a common root: an Adam and an Eve

- the chemical composition of the dust and the man is the same: just to remember, the man, when he dies, he becomes again dust (fertile ground)...

- studying the fossils of the hominids, we conclude that are broken links that cause problems to the continuous evolution theory. If, indeed, God created the different species discretly, one after the other, (at least some of) these missing fossils will never appear, simply because they do not exist.


kind regards,

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Re: Re:

Postby christianstrategies » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:54 pm

SHISHKABOB wrote:
christianstrategies wrote:1. There's already 2 experiences in the same sense that testify that the neutrino's can travel at speeds higher than the light. How many experiences are still required? 1000? It is because this concept has strong consequences to dates and starts subtly to unmask the big lies of the very old dates: 14 billion years light doesnot imply any more 14 billions of years... but less time... the truth begins to appear...


Excuse me but the two experiences of which you speak are not testimonies but rather observations each of whose validity has not yet been officially determined by the greater scientific community. Until this happens, it would be unwise to use such information as the basis of any sort of logical proof.

Though it would appear that you are not trying to be logical, so I guess it doesn't matter.



Excuse me: the experiences with the neutrino's were done in september 2011, 5 months ago. What is the scientifical community waiting for to authenticate the 2 experiences??? Do they not have time to go the CERN and repeat it officially? Are they really good intentioned or do they prefer to let the EXPERIENCE "DIE" and NEVER OFFICIALIZE it?

Sorry to say, the science generally says the truth, but in biblical domains, it goes differently:

1. I sent the strong arguments against evolutionism to the scientifical revues "Science", "Scientifical American" and "Nature" and they prefer to hide the truth or consider it "not relevant" (just to remember: the lies of darwinism were a "bomb" in the scientifical community since the 19 centuries and the lies are taught now in every school)

2. The unexpected Great Warning which precedes the apocalypse: The comet passing very close to the earth with a queue that ressembles another sun: the trajectory of the comet is well known by the scientifical community and the date he will become visible, already very close to the earth: but they do intentionally hide the news of the comet until it will become visible!

Yes, they're not no inoccent in biblical domains, although generally the science tells the truth.

Kind regards. christianstrategies.
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Re: Re:

Postby sachin » Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:17 pm

christianstrategies wrote:I have some solids arguments against darwinism, despite the truth of the experimental facts:

MUTANT BACTERIAS/VIRUS PROOF THE FALSEHOOD OF (THE CONCLUSIONS) OF EVOLUTIONISM

- Assuming that the AIDS virus takes 2 hours to reproduce himself in a chronic patient during 20 years we have about 90.000 generations of the very mutant and dynamic virus... calculus: 12 generations/day x 365 days x 21 years
30.000 generations by the human specie, with a very lower rate of mutations per generation compared with microbes, gives 750.000 years, with about 25 years per generation... According to the science, the human specie changed every 700.000 years... and with a very lower mutation rate per generation (!) SO, ALL (DYNAMIC/ MUTANT) BACTERIA AND VIRUS MUST CHANGE OF SPECIE AFTER 30.000 GENERATIONS OR 10 YEARS! Why? Because humans do it and with a very lower mutation rate per generation... but this change of specie by the microbes almost doesn't happen in the nature after 30.000 generations... the case of the AIDS virus is more flagrant: it mutates enormously, it generates 90.000 generations (enough to 2 million years by humans) and it doesn't change of specie...


As per your explanation Specification is fact and that where the evolution begins. So what ever you said is proof of evolution.

The AIDS virus (any fast growing virus) example can not be compared with any other organism. Its not that AIDS virus is not changing after number of generations (Say 30,000). Just because change in genes are only favored if there is need of such change with changing environment. If you keep conditions constant for years nothing is going to happen to any organism. They are not going to change. The multiplication rate of AIDS virus is so fast that environment where virus grows changes very slowly. So may 90,000 generations of AIDS virus equals to 30,000 generations of other viruses or bacteria where these both change their species.

SO WE'RE BEING MISLED BY THE SCIENCE IN WHAT CONCERNS EVOLUTIONISM AND DATES OF THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION...


I have already written that, evolutionary time line given by paleontologist may not be accurate.

- genetics already say that the mankind derives from a common root: an Adam and an Eve


So what's new in that! May be they both were common ancestors of Ponginids and Hominids.

- the chemical composition of the dust and the man is the same: just to remember, the man, when he dies, he becomes again dust (fertile ground)...


That proves every organism is made up of soil component and has similar origin and so Evolution is fact.

- studying the fossils of the hominids, we conclude that are broken links that cause problems to the continuous evolution theory. If, indeed, God created the different species discretly, one after the other, (at least some of) these missing fossils will never appear, simply because they do not exist.
[/quote]

What if these species were existing and never got fossilized?
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Re: Re:

Postby SHISHKABOB » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:31 pm

christianstrategies wrote:
SHISHKABOB wrote:
christianstrategies wrote:1. There's already 2 experiences in the same sense that testify that the neutrino's can travel at speeds higher than the light. How many experiences are still required? 1000? It is because this concept has strong consequences to dates and starts subtly to unmask the big lies of the very old dates: 14 billion years light doesnot imply any more 14 billions of years... but less time... the truth begins to appear...


Excuse me but the two experiences of which you speak are not testimonies but rather observations each of whose validity has not yet been officially determined by the greater scientific community. Until this happens, it would be unwise to use such information as the basis of any sort of logical proof.

Though it would appear that you are not trying to be logical, so I guess it doesn't matter.



Excuse me: the experiences with the neutrino's were done in september 2011, 5 months ago. What is the scientifical community waiting for to authenticate the 2 experiences??? Do they not have time to go the CERN and repeat it officially? Are they really good intentioned or do they prefer to let the EXPERIENCE "DIE" and NEVER OFFICIALIZE it?


It takes longer than five months for these things to be evaluated. Especially since it is something that is possibly revolutionary in terms of physics. The measurement of the neutrinos has been made official, it's in a journal. However, the validity of the measurements has not yet been affirmed by the scientific community.

It does take a while. Simply being told that the measurements were 100% correct is not enough to make it official. There needs to be vigorous testing and retesting and evaluations of the situation. Which is exactly what is going on right now.
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Re: Re:

Postby christianstrategies » Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:18 pm


What if these species were existing and never got fossilized?


You enter in the domain of the non proofed, like me. What if God have created all species ~6.000 years ago in the 6 day period? Does the Bible tell lies? Imprecisions due to copists, persecutions or the hurry of the authors,it may have, but not lies... if you want, we can have matter for further discussion...

Just to remember: you can not make evolve an australopythecus in a natural, continuous way into a modern man in a labo... does it take too much generations (millions of years)? Try then with microbes: they're going to contradict you...
Last edited by canalon on Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited for clarity. Please quote only the relevant part of the post.
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Postby canalon » Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:47 am

Have you heard of Richard Lenski? Or of that?
Patrick

Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without
any proof. (Ashley Montague)
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Re: Re:

Postby sachin » Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:45 am

christianstrategies wrote:You enter in the domain of the non proofed, like me. What if God have created all species ~6.000 years ago in the 6 day period? Does the Bible tell lies? Imprecisions due to copists, persecutions or the hurry of the authors,it may have, but not lies... if you want, we can have matter for further discussion...


I'm not student of theology to comment on "Great and Holy Bible". Neither I will like to be one. Just what I can do is keep the respect about other religions and their holy books of inspirations. One need to be sure about oneself that "he/she studied every thing about holy book and understands every corner of it with passion, logic and love about it."

6000 year thing is hard to believe for me. Simply because life span of the virus and bacteria is too short as compared to Human. So the speciation time required for these small creatures is very short and humans will of course take say 3000 generations X 100yrs life span = 300,000 yrs to form new species. Hence cant be compared.

christianstrategies wrote:Just to remember: you can not make evolve an australopythecus in a natural, continuous way into a modern man in a labo... does it take too much generations (millions of years)? Try then with microbes: they're going to contradict you...


We don't need to do that in laboratory, just because nature has already done that. :)
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Re: Re:

Postby christianstrategies » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:51 pm

sachin wrote:As per your explanation Specification is fact and that where the evolution begins. So what ever you said is proof of evolution.

The AIDS virus (any fast growing virus) example can not be compared with any other organism. Its not that AIDS virus is not changing after number of generations (Say 30,000). Just because change in genes are only favored if there is need of such change with changing environment. If you keep conditions constant for years nothing is going to happen to any organism. They are not going to change. The multiplication rate of AIDS virus is so fast that environment where virus grows changes very slowly. So may 90,000 generations of AIDS virus equals to 30,000 generations of other viruses or bacteria where these both change their species.


The remaining environment is bigger and,thus, has less generations for the same period of time. But what counts is the number of generations and not the period of time. All mutant microbes (serious mutations: resistence to antibiotica, etc) after 30.000 generations shall change of specie, because, according to darwinism, man was able to do it (30.000 generations x 25 years/generation = 750.000 years for man)... THUS, MUTANT MICROBES CONTRADICT (CONTINUOUS CHANGE OF SPECIE) EVOLUTION, Sorry.
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Re: Re:

Postby christianstrategies » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:09 pm

sachin wrote:
- genetics already say that the mankind derives from a common root: an Adam and an Eve


So what's new in that! May be they both were common ancestors of Ponginids and Hominids.


No, There's a common ancester to modern man (only modern man, thus discarding here the hominids), according to genetics. Only dates don't match with the Bible: the "Adam" would have 60.000 years and "Eve" 140.000 years.

- the chemical composition of the dust and the man is the same: just to remember, the man, when he dies, he becomes again dust (fertile ground)...


That proves every organism is made up of soil component and has similar origin and so Evolution is fact.


a. No, Evolution is not a fact: You have to proof:
1) creation of life from the dust in a spontaneous way... without divine intervention... try it in a labo... don't come with excuses of the thousands of generations (= millions of years)... begin creating a virus from the dust spontaneously... 10 years are enough for 30.000 generations...

2) they have to proof changement of specie, for all species of the world, through mutation and hazard only... mutant microbes are there contradicting this theory...

b. MIRACLES DO EXIST: THE UNCORRUPTIBLE BODIES OF THE SAINTS UNDER NORMAL CONDITIONS OF (NON) CONSERVATION ARE PUBLIC AND PERMANENT MIRACLES. Ex. Saint Bernardette of Lourdes (even smells parfum, I think) or the anti modernist ideologies,
Saints Padre Pio and Pope Pius X...

TO BE TRUTH, LOGICAL REASONING IS NOT ENOUGH. INSTEAD, COHERENCY WITH REALITY IS A WARRANTY OF TRUTH. It is here where Bible triumphs and easy logic theories as darwinism and islam fail...

AS SUCH, ADAM CAN BE CREATED FROM THE DUST OF THE GROUND...
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Re: Re:

Postby christianstrategies » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:44 pm

sachin wrote:
christianstrategies wrote:You enter in the domain of the non proofed, like me. What if God have created all species ~6.000 years ago in the 6 day period? Does the Bible tell lies? Imprecisions due to copists, persecutions or the hurry of the authors,it may have, but not lies... if you want, we can have matter for further discussion...


I'm not student of theology to comment on "Great and Holy Bible". Neither I will like to be one. Just what I can do is keep the respect about other religions and their holy books of inspirations. One need to be sure about oneself that "he/she studied every thing about holy book and understands every corner of it with passion, logic and love about it."

6000 year thing is hard to believe for me. Simply because life span of the virus and bacteria is too short as compared to Human. So the speciation time required for these small creatures is very short and humans will of course take say 3000 generations X 100yrs life span = 300,000 yrs to form new species. Hence cant be compared.


1. Yes, it can be compared: do microbes not mutate a lot? Resistance to antibiotics, Aids mutations? Do you want still more serious mutations? So, 30.000 generations of a microbe during, say, 10 years, correspond to 30.000 x 25 years = 750.000 years to man, or taking your equivalency of 100 years time, 30.000 x100 years= 3.000.000 years time to man... YES, MUTANT MICROBES ARE THERE TO UNMASK THE LIE... IN THE REAL PROOF, THE COHERENCY AGAINST REALITY, DARWINISM (AND ISLAM) FAIL AGAINST THE BIBLE...

2. Do your grand fathers have lost genetic features? Do your grand sons acquire new serious mutations (6 fingers in place of five etc)? Anwser: spontaneously, NO. So, the microbe mutations rate per generation are even higher than by humans...


sachin wrote:
christianstrategies wrote:Just to remember: you can not make evolve an australopythecus in a natural, continuous way into a modern man in a labo... does it take too much generations (millions of years)? Try then with microbes: they're going to contradict you...


We don't need to do that in laboratory, just because nature has already done that. :)


YES, NATURE PROOFS THAT AFTER 30.000 GENERATIONS (=750.000 YEARS BY MAN) THERE'S NO CHANGE OF SPECIE, EVEN IN HIGH MUTANT MICROBES (Aids, microbes resistant to antibiotica...).

YES, COHERENCY WITH REALITY UNMASKS THE LIE OF THE THEORIES OF DARWINISM...
Logical reasoning of Darwinism or Koran is not enough to be truth. coherency with reality is required instead, and, sometimes, the truth (=coherency with reality) doesn't match with a given logical reasoning.
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Re: Any SOLID arguments against evolution?

Postby sachin » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:00 am

Dear christianstrategies,

christianstrategies
Logical reasoning of Darwinism or Koran is not enough to be truth. coherency with reality is required instead, and, sometimes, the truth (=coherency with reality) doesn't match with a given logical reasoning.


I found this thread gathering inter religious comments. Also I find no logic in arguing on this topic with person obsessed with religious values. The discussion can not be healthy enough any further when people starts thinking illogically by giving weightage to one side.
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Re: Re:

Postby AstraSequi » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:52 am

Just a few relevant points.

christianstrategies wrote:begin creating a virus from the dust spontaneously...

This is not a logical criterion; if we "begin creating" something, then by definition, it will not have happened "spontaneously." Could you please clarify?

Similarly - by "dust," do you mean "inorganic matter"? If you want to ask for evidence for something, you have to be specific about what you will actually consider to be evidence.


christianstrategies wrote: Do your grand sons acquire new serious mutations (6 fingers in place of five etc)?

...Yes? It's called polydactyly, and it happens in about 1 in 500 live births.

New mutations arise in every person of every generation. I think the average is about seven for each of us.


So, the microbe mutations rate per generation are even higher than by humans...

Again, yes. You can look this up for yourself. Humans are far better at protecting and repairing our DNA than most microbes. Compared to the AIDS virus, the difference is about 1000-fold.
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