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Bible vs Darwin

Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.

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Postby alextemplet » Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:11 am

Keep in mind that most world religions preach peace.
Generally speaking, the more people talk about "being saved," the further away they actually are from true salvation.

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Postby David George » Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:50 am

I have kept in my mind that the reason for so much unrest in this world is also religion.
Whatever diff things they may preach...
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Postby alextemplet » Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:05 pm

And yet the worst killers of have been atheists. Interesting, isn't it?
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Postby David George » Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:32 am

I don't think so.Give me few examples.
I know that hitler was christian.Read that mussolini was an atheist but not quite sure.
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Postby alextemplet » Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:13 am

Hitler tried to stamp out Christianity, so what you read was very mistaken.

Good examples of murderous atheists would be Stalin and Pol Pot.

Face it, people are going to kill each other no matter what, and they'll make up any excuse to justify it.
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Postby David George » Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:43 pm

Hahahahaha
I expected you would say this.Hitler was a christian.Well he might have not been what the bible preaches a man to be[well most people who claim to be christians are no different]
Besides hitler maintained Religious neutrality[except for the jews].He realised the powerful role the Church played so he never dared to "stamp out chirstianity".
Pol Pot bad guy---------accepted.
Stalin------------ too much controversy over him.But without doubt he had blood on his hands
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Postby alextemplet » Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:40 pm

Hitler was about as religiously neutral as Osama bin Laden. He tried to establish his own religion based on ancient teutonic mythology, and Christians (especially Catholics) accounted for the second largest group in concentration camps after the Jews.

What's controversial about Stalin? There's no doubt that he was an atheist, and he killed far more people than probably any other despot in history. Even Soviet historians admitted to that.
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Postby AstusAleator » Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:18 pm

Religion is just people unifying under an ideology. People kill each other. If they want to use religion as an excuse for their killing, they'll do so.
Religions are as complex and varied as the people that practice them.

And yes, Hitler used Christianity along with many other teachings to justify(rationalize) his actions. "Jews killed the son of God." It's my understanding, though, that his religious stance (at least outwardly) was dubious - outwardly christian when politically expedient but not so much in policy.

wikipedia has some interesting info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitl ... us_beliefs
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Postby alextemplet » Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:11 pm

It's amazing today that Hitler managed to keep most of Germany in the dark as to what he was really doing, cloaking his designs in a disguise of virtue. I've read some books by German soldiers that they didn't even know about the German defeat in the Battle of Britain until after the war, because Nazi propaganda was so good at covering up defeats.

Still, I find that article interesting, especially where Hitler is quoted claiming to still be Catholic. Quite ironic, really, considering how far his beliefs had deviated from Christian teaching, to the point that Catholics were heavily persecuted in the Holocaust. Another related point, the Catholic Church also organized some of the most successful resistance movements against the Nazis, and also operated an effective underground railroad to smuggle Jews and other "undesirables" to safety. I've read various Protestant churches also did the same, but operated on a smaller scale because they weren't as internationally large of organizations as the Catholic Church.
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Re:

Postby David George » Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:36 am

alextemplet wrote:Hitler was about as religiously neutral as Osama bin Laden. He tried to establish his own religion based on ancient teutonic mythology, and Christians (especially Catholics) accounted for the second largest group in concentration camps after the Jews.

What's controversial about Stalin? There's no doubt that he was an atheist, and he killed far more people than probably any other despot in history. Even Soviet historians admitted to that.


Stalin was an atheist no doubt abt that.

alextemplet wrote:Still, I find that article interesting, especially where Hitler is quoted claiming to still be Catholic. Quite ironic, really, considering how far his beliefs had deviated from Christian teaching, to the point that Catholics were heavily persecuted in the Holocaust. Another related point, the Catholic Church also organized some of the most successful resistance movements against the Nazis, and also operated an effective underground railroad to smuggle Jews and other "undesirables" to safety. I've read various Protestant churches also did the same, but operated on a smaller scale because they weren't as internationally large of organizations as the Catholic Church.


It ain't ironic for me :P
Besides i am happy that he "claims" to be a christian.Cos most people think he was an atheist.
Anyways you still don't realize the fact that religion is the major cause for a lot of fight.And history proves that it ain't a fight between atheists and theists.I am sooooooooooooo biased to atheist ain't I?? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: Bible vs Darwin

Postby AstusAleator » Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:29 pm

Why didn't the Catholic Church excommunicate Hitler?
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Postby alextemplet » Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:45 pm

AstusAleator wrote:Why didn't the Catholic Church excommunicate Hitler?


Consider the Vatican's isolated and vulnerable position inside facist (and, later, German-occupied) Italy. The Vatican would've been powerless had the facists every decided to take it over, Church leaders might have felt it better to stick with covert methods (underground railroad for the Jews, for example) that actually made a difference rather than public statements that wouldn't change the situation at all except to anger Hitler into invading the Vatican and sending the Pope to Auschwitz.

David George wrote:Anyways you still don't realize the fact that religion is the major cause for a lot of fight.And history proves that it ain't a fight between atheists and theists.I am sooooooooooooo biased to atheist ain't I??


And you still don't realize that people are going to fight each other anyway and only use religion (or nationalism, or racism, or any other excuse they can find) as a way to "justify" it.

You have also ignored the fact that if what you say is true, then eliminating religion should also eliminate the majority of unrest in the world, yet the history of most atheist communist states (and also revolutionary France) seems to give the opposite impression, that eliminating religion only leads to even more violence.

You also ignore the fact that most major world religions preach peace, and most of the good that gets done in the world (charities, for example) is done by religious organizations.

You also ignore the fact that the category of "religion" covers such an extreme diversity of beliefs and practices that lumping it all together as you have is about as illogical as lumping communism in with capitalism as "all the same sort of thing."

You also ignore the fact that almost all violence in the world is condemned and opposed by most religious leaders, for example Pope John Paul II's opposition to the US invasion of Iraq. Those who try to claim religious justification for violence, such as in Northern Ireland, are also very strongly condemned by those same religious leaders, and the religion they claim to represent (in this case, Protestantism and Catholicism) cannot be held responsible for their actions anymore than the United States government can be held accountable for the actions of Timothy McVeigh.

Add to that the fact that you have twisted my words around to your own benefit (by claiming I said the Bible is flawed, when I in fact said no such thing), and you have succeeded in the very difficult task of making some of the young earth creationists on this site appear logical by comparison (although, to be fair, you still haven't topped enarees). In fact you and some of the other hateful atheists on this forum (including the guy who tried to claim that knowledge is sinful, as well as the one who labeled people of faith as "religitards") have honestly made me wonder, what ever happened to reason?
Generally speaking, the more people talk about "being saved," the further away they actually are from true salvation.

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