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Symbiotic Relationshsips

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Postby Darby » Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:26 am

The need for physical contact between symbiotic organisms is somewhat dated. Rightly or not, the definition has moved toward the ones mostly referred to here, as a relationship (usually obligate, but even that can vary) between different species that doesn't harm either.
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Postby 123Herpatology » Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:29 pm

My professors always stressed that a symbiotic relationship was a general term used for interaction between two living organisms, in which could be further narrowed down by their interaction (i.e. mutualism, parasitism, commensalism). . . So i figured any case of mutualism, parasitism, and commensalism would automatically be labeled as a symbiotic relationship. However, i think it is only those three catagories in which are symbiotic...and not say hunting. Is this wrong also?
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Postby vk4vfx » Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:23 pm

Symbiotic relationships definitely involve mutualism, parasitism and so on but there is one other that is often overlooked and that is Mimicry.

Since your member name is "123Herpatology" I will use Herpetofauna for an e.g. a Leaf tailed Gecko mimicking a leaf or part of a tree trunks bark benefits from this behavior thus gaining protection from predators, mimicry is also very common in the insect world as well.

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Postby mkwaje » Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:38 am

I don't believe mimicry is a form of symbiosis. Is there interaction with the leaf and the gecko? Or is it the gecko and the predator? Otherwise that falls under predation.

I believe symbiotic relatioship is the close association between different species of animal (*edit - my mistake.. should be organisms - thnx to vk4vfx for pointing it out)-- and that include all types of relationship listed in wikipedia. Predation and even grazing may sound like harmful to one species but in the long run is beneficial to the ecosystem as a whole. Lions for example have to keep in check the number of herbivores in plains. Giraffes have to munch on the lower leaves of trees (usually the old unproduvtive leaves).

That is just my two cents; I know other minds might disagree.
Last edited by mkwaje on Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Poison » Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:21 pm

I haven't read anything about mimicry is a form of symbiosis.
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Postby vk4vfx » Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:32 pm

http://www.ms-starship.com/sciencenew/symbiosis.htm

Now you can say you have read something about "Mimicry" as a form of symbiosis.

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Postby mkwaje » Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:58 am

I have browsed the posted article, I still maintain my belief that mimicry is not a form of symbiosis. Without due offense to the author, Dave Abbott, I am not saying its a mistake but we have differing opinions. Just because one orgnism mimics the form or color of another, doesn't mean that they interact. Wihtout a predator of some kind would you think there is any interaction between the gecko and the leaf? Still the interaction is between the prey and predator; not the prey and environment.

Next thing you're going to tell me, moths have a symbiotic relationship with concrete walls because the moth mimics its color.

See what I mean.
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Postby vk4vfx » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:30 am

"Next thing you're going to tell me, moths have a symbiotic relationship with concrete walls because the moth mimics its color"

Let me know when a concrete wall is classified as a living organism and I will get back to you on that one ok.

“I believe symbiotic relatioship is the close association between different species of animal”

Not just animal different organisms, a tree is an organism!

Definition of Symbiosis is a close, prolonged association between two or more different organisms (Gecko and tree) of different species (Gecko and tree) that may, but DOES NOT necessarily, benefit each member. A relationship of mutual benefit or dependence.

So… tree (organism) Gecko (organism) = association between two or more different organisms = “Symbiosis”

My quick post may not of been the best example of another form of Symbiosis but that does not make it incorrect, I used the example for "123Herpatology" benefit and used the first thing that popped into my head not word for word off Wikipedia.

Depending on the species of tree and the Leaf tails insectivorous diet what’s to say it was not feeding on harmful invertebrates threatening the survival of the tree?

Then the tree would benefit by the Gecko’s presence in or on the tree, and the Gecko benefits and gains protection from the tree thus ensuring its survival, but remember Symbiosis does not necessarily have to benefit each member of organisms within the relationship.

See what I mean.

Stu
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Postby mkwaje » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:33 pm

vk4vfx wrote:"Next thing you're going to tell me, moths have a symbiotic relationship with concrete walls because the moth mimics its color"

Let me know when a concrete wall is classified as a living organism and I will get back to you on that one ok.


That was meant to be sarcastic you know so you can clearly see that mimicry is not a symbiotic relationship.

vk4vfx wrote:Definition of Symbiosis is a close, prolonged association between two or more different organisms (Gecko and tree) of different species (Gecko and tree) that may, but DOES NOT necessarily, benefit each member. A relationship of mutual benefit or dependence.

So… tree (organism) Gecko (organism) = association between two or more different organisms = “Symbiosis”
...

Depending on the species of tree and the Leaf tails insectivorous diet what’s to say it was not feeding on harmful invertebrates threatening the survival of the tree?

Then the tree would benefit by the Gecko’s presence in or on the tree, and the Gecko benefits and gains protection from the tree thus ensuring its survival, but remember Symbiosis does not necessarily have to benefit each member of organisms within the relationship.

See what I mean.

Stu


Exactly what I've been telling you, what you posted above is not mimicry, is it? Its a classical example of mutualism. And in no instance have you mentioned mimicry.
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Postby vk4vfx » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:45 am

Yep that was the response I anticipated this is where I can see I am wasting my breath good luck.

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Postby mkwaje » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:01 am

I really wanted to just drop this topic. I thought we were discussing scientifically about symbiotic relationships. I am an open minded biologist; if you have proof that mimicry is a symbiotic relationship besides the fact that it is published in a website, I can change my mind. Inquisitive minds of students and collegues are encouraged; I don't see you as wasting your breath on me/us. I did learn from the posts above. Not all biologists certainly view it the way I see it though.
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Postby kiekyon » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:32 pm

i think both mkwaje and vk4vfx have valid arguments
the answer may lie in which definition of symbiosis are they using
if u define symbiosis as 'close interaction', then i would say mimicry is not a type of symbiosis
if u define it as 'living together', then it may be.

however the term interaction does not necessarily means anything physical.

this is the definition of 'interaction' from wikipedia

Interaction is a kind of action which occurs as two or more objects have an effect upon one another


so, i would disagree with MrMistery and say that competition is symbiotic
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