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Imperfect Design

Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.

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Postby genovese » Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:09 am

The subject I chose was intended to see how the IDs would react to my proposition that we are imperfectly made. (How could an Almighty Creator produce anything that in our eyes did not appear to be perfect?).

As for genetic manipulation - that is already well on the road map. If global warming continues at this pace we may have a choice of doing nothing (and becoming extinct), doing something but still becoming extinct, or attempt to change our physiology so as to survive with less water and more heat.

There are plenty of people suffering from genetic mistakes who would love to be "normalized" with the help from some genetic tinkering.
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Postby AstusAleator » Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:12 pm

genovese wrote:There are plenty of people suffering from genetic mistakes who would love to be "normalized" with the help from some genetic tinkering.


Yes, if only we could genetically transform all those jews, gays, and blacks into good Arians.

:shock: :o :shock: :o
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Postby alextemplet » Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:50 pm

Yeah, that did sound a bit eugenic to me as well.

Genetics is certainly worthy to study but it becomes dangerous when people try to push it this far, which I think is further than it was ever meant to be pushed. Especially when it's been shown that genetics does not play as big of a role as some people would think.

What about epigenetics? It may (or may not) be possible to pass on "genetics" information that's not contained in the DNA code at all! I think it's very early to start tinkering with anything; we should first make sure we understand what we're tinkering with.
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Postby AstusAleator » Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:06 pm

Then again, some of the best discoveries have been made by "tinkering." I guess the issue would be, at what cost?

I'm wondering how much we're already tinkering with our genome without knowing it. What are the hormones released into the environment, or supplemented in our food doing to us? What about all those other crazy chemicals out there? 8O
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Postby greeneye55582 » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:23 pm

Well I took quite a few days away from this thread for a break.

I think it's kind of silly to continue a discussion on what perfection is and isn't. Perfection means different things to different people.

As for the genetic tinkering, it's already happened & will continue to happen. Why? Because we're curious. Despite your best efforts at fortune-telling, you can't predict all the possible outcomes of genetic tinkering. Unexpected results & phenotypes may happen.
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Postby alextemplet » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:54 am

greeneye55582 wrote:As for the genetic tinkering, it's already happened & will continue to happen. Why? Because we're curious. Despite your best efforts at fortune-telling, you can't predict all the possible outcomes of genetic tinkering. Unexpected results & phenotypes may happen.


I'm not saying that it won't happen; I'm saying that I don't think it should happen. Just because something has already happened and will happen again doesn't mean anything. Murder has already happened and will again, but that doesn't make it right.
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Postby genovese » Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:10 pm

My original title was "Imperfect Design" which I thought proved that the Darwin theory of evolution was a model that would produce such a result, whereas the God Creator Model shouldn't have produced any imperfections, unless you are imagining a Man made God.
As for "eugenics" I certainly had no idea of that in mind. I was thinking more of the thousands of medical cripples which are a direct result of Genetic Variations and how their lives could be improved by genetic manipulation. Of course errors will at first occur but what about all the millions of erors that have occured from Nature working alone? We only see the survivors of Natural Selection and therefore tend to see a beautiful world- what about the millions of failures discarded by NATURE? What a lot of people seem to be saying is, "it's OK for Nature to produce rubbish, but Man must not attempt to do a better job in case he has some failures in the process". WHY? If God gave us free will and intelligence - why should we not use it to better our lives? If a mad politician comes along with eugenics in mind - I am sure that other men will be capable of dealing with this threat.
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Postby alextemplet » Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:29 pm

Firstly, who ever said that God had to produce perfection?

Secondly, simply saying that other people will deal with the threat of eugenics doesn't make such tinkering okay. The last time we tried a policy "other people will deal with it," World War Two happened. Sure, other men were eventually capable of bringing Hitler's eugenic and racial purity politics to a halt, but it took millions of people six years and countless deaths to stop him. Are you really suggesting that's a safe road to take?

The biggest reason man should not attempt to tinker with his own genetics is because we do not yet understand genetics well enough to guarantee that a disaster doesn't happen.
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Postby genovese » Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:57 pm

"Firstly, who ever said that God had to produce perfection?"
I, for one, say that the least one can expect from a God is perfection. I presume that you would agree that a God worth worshiping would at least have perfect Moral Values? Or would he have imperfect Moral values? If these were perfect, then why should anything else that he decides to do not also be perfect? Sloppy work would suggest sloppy attitude and even sloppy morals.
There are lots of things we do not yet understand fully, biochemistry being an example, but that shouldn't stop us finding out more about the subject and using it for our benefit when we judge it to be safe. You do not have anything to say about Nature's errors by the billions. I presume that is why you do not expect perfection from a God, perhaps because Nature and God are synonymous?
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Postby alextemplet » Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:15 pm

Nature and God are not synonymous; nature is to God what a painting is to an artist. To understand why an artist creates an artwork to look a certain way, one must you must first understand the artist's motives and goals to know why he chose to create the art and what he wishes the artwork to mean. God's goal in creating man is for us to love Him and be loved by Him; just as families wish to maintain loving relationships with each other, so too does the Father wish for a loving relationship with His children. Since love by its very nature must be given freely, and cannot be forced, we were given free will: the ability to choose to love God or reject Him, to choose between good and evil, right and wrong. Free will cannot exist in a perfect world; by its very nature it is the ability to choose between good and evil, and so a choice must be available. In a perfect world there is no negative to choose, and only one choice, and so free will cannot exist in a perfect world. For this reason, the world around us is imperfect, and it is up to us to choose either to love and serve God (and thus move towards greater perfection) or to reject Him (and thus slip away into greater imperfection).

Many look at an artwork without first bothering to understand the artist, and wonder "Why?" Others examine the art in the context of the artist's motives and goals, and can thus understand both its intricate beauty and its logical comprehensibility.
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Postby genovese » Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:35 pm

"....and serve God (and thus move towards greater perfection)".

Well we almost agree then! That is why I feel that we need to look into genetic manipulation so as to reach perfection where Nature has failed.

For some folks this will mean serving God and for others it will simply have to mean serving Mankind.
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Postby alextemplet » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:35 pm

You're thinking of perfection in the wrong sense, though, in the sense of temporary things whereas I'm talking about things that last for eternity. One obviously outweighs the other.
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