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Imperfect Design

Discussion of everything related to the Theory of Evolution.

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Postby alextemplet » Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:51 am

genovese wrote:alextemplete says "what about believing in God with proof.."
Please let me know what the proof is.
"Talking to God every day" is not proof that he/she exists.
I talked to Father Christmas and Fairies once upon a time, but I do not expect you to take that on board as proof that they really existed. I agree that they did exist in my own mind, but unfortunately other people standing next to me were unable to confirm their presence.


Have those fairies and pixies ever been able to accurately predict future events? Or answer prayers? And in my case, the presence of God was confirmed by others around me, even non-believers.
Generally speaking, the more people talk about "being saved," the further away they actually are from true salvation.

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Postby genovese » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:12 am

Oh yes, Father Christmas did predict the future. I asked for an electric train set. He assured me that I would get one and my request was answered a week later.
I suppose that should be enough proof of the existence of Father Christmas.
I have also had many prayers that have NOT been answered. I suppose that must be proof that God does not exist.

Seriously though, I do respect peoples views on religious beliefs. It usually has positive benefits for them as individuals and for society as a whole. This is why I think that Natural Selection has encoded this belief into our genome and once something is in our genome it is very hard to remove it. The "Selfish Gene" (Richard Dawkins) will use its carrier which ever way it suits it best.
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Postby alextemplet » Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:08 pm

Somehow I have the feeling that I'm not being taken seriously. :roll:
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Postby greeneye55582 » Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:09 pm

genovese wrote:The "temporary absence of logic" only applies to accepting Belief in something without actual proof.


I understand what you're saying with this. And actually agree with the idea, despite disagreements with other topics in this forum.
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Postby greeneye55582 » Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:20 pm

alextemplet wrote:
Think about what you're saying for a minute. The universe, which is (probably) finite, was created by God. Common sense would indicate that for God to have created the universe, He must first have existed outside it! So He would not be bound by what we consider to be "natural law."

And who says God has never been detected? I talk to Him every day. Surely that counts as detection?


Alex, I was all with ya buddy (on both this thread & the other one started by genovese)) until you said this. :)

I think we have to take into consideration both the people who believe in God & those that don't before making statements about the creation of the universe.
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Postby greeneye55582 » Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:24 pm

alextemplet wrote:What about believing in God with proof to back up the belief?


And what proof do you have? (I'm honestly asking, not being cynical).
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Postby greeneye55582 » Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:35 pm

alextemplet wrote:
Why is it so illogical? If I create something, I can choose to create it to be controllable by me, can't I?


Why does this remind me of puppets? Hmm.. scary.

Starting out in a research lab years ago, I used to clone cells. So in a sense, I created it and chose a feature I wanted it to exhibit. Was it controllable by me? yes & no.
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Postby alextemplet » Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:10 pm

greeneye55582 wrote:
alextemplet wrote:
Think about what you're saying for a minute. The universe, which is (probably) finite, was created by God. Common sense would indicate that for God to have created the universe, He must first have existed outside it! So He would not be bound by what we consider to be "natural law."

And who says God has never been detected? I talk to Him every day. Surely that counts as detection?


Alex, I was all with ya buddy (on both this thread & the other one started by genovese)) until you said this. :)

I think we have to take into consideration both the people who believe in God & those that don't before making statements about the creation of the universe.


I was simply trying to explain that it is (at least) possible for God to exist, and the statement that the universe is finite and therefore God is impossible is a logical fallacy. My apologies if I didn't express myself clearly enough.
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Postby alextemplet » Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:13 pm

greeneye55582 wrote:
alextemplet wrote:What about believing in God with proof to back up the belief?


And what proof do you have? (I'm honestly asking, not being cynical).


That's going to be quite a lengthy discussion that may not be tolerated in this forum (perhaps it would be better in the off-topic?). I would be more than happy to discuss it in great detail with you through private messages or perhaps an instant messenger or e-mail. You can find all my contact info at the bottom of my posts.

For now, let me at least say that - in addition to other evidence - I have the evidence of my own eyes. If I have met someone, and spoken to him, I know that he exists, do I not? :wink:
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Postby genovese » Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:55 pm

Greeneye55582 has asked "why should a creator want to create perfection".
I could never imagine him wanting to do otherwise - unless he was a sadist/cynical creator wanting to watch us squirm in some kind of awful experiment.
It would also backfire on the creator for we humans would then be in a position of improving on his creation.
Although even if the creator created imperfectly - to us mere humans it would always appear to be perfect - unless like the Romans, we can also become Gods.
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Postby alextemplet » Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:09 am

genovese wrote:Greeneye55582 has asked "why should a creator want to create perfection".
I could never imagine him wanting to do otherwise - unless he was a sadist/cynical creator wanting to watch us squirm in some kind of awful experiment.


In my opinion, imperfection is the price of free will.
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Re: Imperfect Design

Postby charles brough » Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:20 pm

genovese wrote:Imperfect Design

Darwin’s theory of Evolution explains how living things adapt to changing environments over time so as to survive and procreate the species. It does not suggest that the results will turn out to be perfect. Look through any medical textbook and you will conclude that homo sapiens is far from being a perfect in design. It is these very imperfections that give strength to the theory. Intelligent design should produce perfect design, unless it has been produced by limited intelligence. The creationist theory seems to suggest that the Creator has not done his work properly – surely that cannot be so.

I am sure that many Biologists and Biochemists have ideas on how the human body could have been improved. I would like to hear some of them. As a starter, how about putting a few chloroplasts into our skin? We could eat and sunbath at the same time. We might in addition become less aggressive by being less competitive over food.


Genetic tinkering with our makeup is as dangerous an undertaking as I can imagine! Would we change us into a unisex species like was the fad of the 1990s? E.O.Wilson wanted to improve our altruism without even knowing what it is. Pity us if people start to re-designing us! That would be doom for sure!

So, perhaps we can relax that we are not "perfect." Do you know ANYTHING that IS perfect? I don't.
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